Mr Impotence

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am still on generic Ciallis therapy, 10 mg every day. It works. And we don’t have to schedule anything.

Response:

What is generic Ciallis therapy. Is this a generic form of Ciallis? If so, is it readily available and where can it be purchased?   I also seem to have excessive perspiration in my groin area at times. Have you had this experience, and if so, wgat to do about it? Thanks.

Response:

What is generic Ciallis therapy.

Ten mg per day. Is this a generic form of Ciallis?

Yes. It’s brand name isTadacip.  If so, is it readily available and where can it be purchased?

Google XPharmacy. Also check out another thread running here.  I also seem to have excessive perspiration in my groin area at times. Have you had this experience, and if so, wgat to do about it? Thanks.

No such problem other than summer sweat and heat rash, gone now. I have noticed no side effects while getting the desired results.

Response:

I have changed pad before because of perspiration.  Not sure if the pad itself causes the perspiration or just traps it.  There is not much we can do about that.  My uro told me to not use talc down there by the way.  He thought it just made a mess.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is generic Ciallis therapy. Is this a generic form of Ciallis? If so, is it readily available and where can it be purchased?   I also seem to have excessive perspiration in my groin area at times. Have you had this experience, and if so, wgat to do about it? Thanks.

Response:

It has been 1 1/2 years since my nerve-sparing RRP at age 66. I have tried all 3 ED medications and have settled on 20 mg of Levitra. It produces better results for me and hasn’t failed yet. Over Thanksgiving my wife and I tried sex without medication without success (initial arousal not sustainable). Yes, there is a very small chance of blindness, but only one case reported with Levitra to date out of all dosages prescribed). In six months we will see if there is any chance of non-medicated sex two years after the RRP. I am also going in for my 18 month PSA test later this week. I hope the velocity curve continues to flatten: 3 months –  0.03 9 months –  0.07 12 months- 0.08

Response:

Ditto here. Although I’m only out about 1 year RP at 53, I get about 45% or so of an erection with it as opposed to 0% with the others. About the blindness….they used to say that about another "problem".

Response:

None of the three pills work for me.  RRP August, 2003.  :((( But if I want a stuffy nose, Viagra is the way to go.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ditto here. Although I’m only out about 1 year RP at 53, I get about 45% or so of an erection with it as opposed to 0% with the others. About the blindness….they used to say that about another "problem".

Response:

I am still on generic Ciallis therapy, 10 mg every day. It works. And we don’t have to schedule anything.

Response:

It has been 1 1/2 years since my nerve-sparing RRP at age 66. I have tried all 3 ED medications and have settled on 20 mg of Levitra. It produces better results for me and hasn’t failed yet. Over Thanksgiving my wife and I tried sex without medication without success (initial arousal not sustainable). Yes, there is a very small chance of blindness, but only one case reported with Levitra to date out of all dosages prescribed). In six months we will see if there is any chance of non-medicated sex two years after the RRP. I am also going in for my 18 month PSA test later this week. I hope the velocity curve continues to flatten: 3 months –  0.03 9 months –  0.07 12 months- 0.08

If the blindness arises for the same reasons as for Viagra, then it is rare and restricted to men with heart disease who also have a special configuration of the macula.  If you have regular eye examinations by an ophthamologist, he or she can tell you if you  have that particular kind of macula.  I checked with mine, and I don’t.  Also, I don’t have heart disease as far as I know, so I’ve forgotten about that particular risk.

Response:

Question:

NY Times 28Nov05 business section "  Gimme an Rx! Cheerleaders Pep Up Drug Sales " [ Still, women have an advantage with male doctors, according to Jamie Reidy, a drug representative who was fired by Eli Lilly this year after writing a book lampooning the industry, "Hard Sell: The Evolution of a Viagra Salesman."] [In an interview, Mr. Reidy remembered a sales call with the "all-time most attractive, coolest woman in the history of drug repdom." At first, he said, the doctor "gave ten reasons not to use one of our drugs." But, Mr. Reidy added: "She gave a little hair toss and a tug on his sleeve and said, 'Come on, doctor, I need the scrips.' He said, 'O.K., how do I dose that thing?' I could never reach out and touch a female physician that way."] In my experience most drug reps can’t or won’t provide a set of refereed journal articles that about their products, but they all are good looking. _g

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NY Times 28Nov05 business section "  Gimme an Rx! Cheerleaders Pep Up Drug Sales " [ Still, women have an advantage with male doctors, according to Jamie Reidy, a drug representative who was fired by Eli Lilly this year after writing a book lampooning the industry, "Hard Sell: The Evolution of a Viagra Salesman."] [In an interview, Mr. Reidy remembered a sales call with the "all-time most attractive, coolest woman in the history of drug repdom." At first, he said, the doctor "gave ten reasons not to use one of our drugs." But, Mr. Reidy added: "She gave a little hair toss and a tug on his sleeve and said, 'Come on, doctor, I need the scrips.' He said, 'O.K., how do I dose that thing?' I could never reach out and touch a female physician that way."] In my experience most drug reps can’t or won’t provide a set of refereed journal articles that about their products, but they all are good looking. _g

I have been noticing that.  And very well-dressed.

Response:

In my experience most drug reps can’t or won’t provide a set of refereed journal articles that about their products, but they all are good looking. _g Sure they do ~ ! And they put the aticles in nice slip case Packages, too ~ !

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NY Times 28Nov05 business section "  Gimme an Rx! Cheerleaders Pep Up Drug Sales " [ Still, women have an advantage with male doctors, according to Jamie Reidy, a drug representative who was fired by Eli Lilly this year after writing a book lampooning the industry, "Hard Sell: The Evolution of a Viagra Salesman."] [In an interview, Mr. Reidy remembered a sales call with the "all-time most attractive, coolest woman in the history of drug repdom." At first, he said, the doctor "gave ten reasons not to use one of our drugs." But, Mr. Reidy added: "She gave a little hair toss and a tug on his sleeve and said, 'Come on, doctor, I need the scrips.' He said, 'O.K., how do I dose that thing?' I could never reach out and touch a female physician that way."] In my experience most drug reps can’t or won’t provide a set of refereed journal articles that about their products, but they all are good looking. _g I have been noticing that.  And very well-dressed.

From my perspective the style of dress  is typically  "moving up" style. I guess that works well with a lot af male MDs who have worked to move up in the class system.  To me it screams "trying too hard". One thing to note about the NYT article.  It doesn’t do anything to challenge the perception that cheerleaders are dumb and cute.  When I was an undergrad at UNC one of the cheerleaders had a 4.0 average…until one of the PE profs, as I remember, had the nerve to (undeservably)  give her a B. From what I can tell from a Google search she became a top Washington DC attorney who has served in govt. _g

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "  Gimme an Rx! Cheerleaders Pep Up Drug Sales " [ Still, women have an advantage with male doctors, according to Jamie Reidy, a drug representative who was fired by Eli Lilly this year after writing a book lampooning the industry, "Hard Sell: The Evolution of a Viagra Salesman."] [In an interview, Mr. Reidy remembered a sales call with the "all-time most attractive, coolest woman in the history of drug repdom." At first, he said, the doctor "gave ten reasons not to use one of our drugs." But, Mr. Reidy added: "She gave a little hair toss and a tug on his sleeve and said, 'Come on, doctor, I need the scrips.' He said, 'O.K., how do I dose that thing?' I could never reach out and touch a female physician that way."] In my experience most drug reps can’t or won’t provide a set of refereed journal articles that about their products, but they all are good looking. _g I have been noticing that.  And very well-dressed. From my perspective the style of dress  is typically  "moving up" style. I guess that works well with a lot af male MDs who have worked to move up in the class system.  To me it screams "trying too hard". One thing to note about the NYT article.  It doesn’t do anything to challenge the perception that cheerleaders are dumb and cute.  When I was an undergrad at UNC one of the cheerleaders had a 4.0 average…until one of the PE profs, as I remember, had the nerve to (undeservably)  give her a B. From what I can tell from a Google search she became a top Washington DC attorney who has served in govt. _g

Oh sorry — I’m clueless.  The two I was talking about were men.  One was selling Ortho Evra to a female GYN doc at UNC Student Health.  Pretty smart, no?

Response:

In my experience most drug reps can’t or won’t provide a set of refereed journal articles that about their products, but they all are good looking. _g The article must be consistent with Indication, per FDA regulation, if they provide to a doc. You know that G.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "  Gimme an Rx! Cheerleaders Pep Up Drug Sales " [ Still, women have an advantage with male doctors, according to Jamie Reidy, a drug representative who was fired by Eli Lilly this year after writing a book lampooning the industry, "Hard Sell: The Evolution of a Viagra Salesman."] [In an interview, Mr. Reidy remembered a sales call with the "all-time most attractive, coolest woman in the history of drug repdom." At first, he said, the doctor "gave ten reasons not to use one of our drugs." But, Mr. Reidy added: "She gave a little hair toss and a tug on his sleeve and said, 'Come on, doctor, I need the scrips.' He said, 'O.K., how do I dose that thing?' I could never reach out and touch a female physician that way."] In my experience most drug reps can’t or won’t provide a set of refereed journal articles that about their products, but they all are good looking. _g I have been noticing that.  And very well-dressed. From my perspective the style of dress  is typically  "moving up" style. I guess that works well with a lot af male MDs who have worked to move up in the class system.  To me it screams "trying too hard". One thing to note about the NYT article.  It doesn’t do anything to challenge the perception that cheerleaders are dumb and cute.  When I was an undergrad at UNC one of the cheerleaders had a 4.0 average…until one of the PE profs, as I remember, had the nerve to (undeservably)  give her a B. From what I can tell from a Google search she became a top Washington DC attorney who has served in govt. _g Oh sorry — I’m clueless.  The two I was talking about were men.  One was selling Ortho Evra to a female GYN doc at UNC Student Health.  Pretty smart, no?

You’re not clueless, you’re heterosexual. _g

Response:

In my experience most drug reps can’t or won’t provide a set of refereed journal articles that about their products, but they all are good looking. _g The article must be consistent with Indication, per FDA regulation, if they provide to a doc. You know that G.

I was not referring to asking for articles concerning off-label use. I would not want  drug co’s to market products for off-label uses.  The marketing is bad enough already.  That material should be obtained from the research centers that developed the off label protocols. _g

Response:

Question:

<big snip What Bob wrote was: ::I love you, Jackie. ::(like it or not) ::<g ::Bob —– That was very much in line with the way the entire thread was going. That is, however, in no way saying "he was going to tell her he loves her whether she liked it or not," as you say.

However, NO means NO. It’s really as simple as that. Deirdre

Response:

how’s come muh posts ain’t showin’ up… did i get moder-tated outtah heah? FINALLYYYYYYYYYYYYYyyyyy?

Response:

Meryl:  On the face of it, that looks like a reasonable question, and maybe it is completely so.  I started thinking for a minute on it, and the first thing that came to my mind was something like "if something irritates me/makes me anxious/causes any other undesirable emotions, and it takes the form of an internet message directed at me, why would I choose to READ it ?" If you felt "targeted" by me, for example, wouldn’t you just skim past my posts, dismissing them as non-productive for you, at the minimum, and possibly even anxiety-provoking?  I am not female, so obviously I lack that perspective, and have also considered that there may be differing formats of this newsgroup – in terms of the way it’s presented, such that maybe a post "can’t" be totally ignored.  If my girlfriend felt "targeted" by something on the internet, my first thought would be to suggest that maybe she ought not to read it.  Is there something more arcane here that I’m missing, or just don’t have an awareness of ? G

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to the stone age chiseled out: <big snip What Bob wrote was: ::I love you, Jackie. ::(like it or not) ::<g ::Bob —– That was very much in line with the way the entire thread was going. That is, however, in no way saying "he was going to tell her he loves her whether she liked it or not," as you say. However, NO means NO. It’s really as simple as that. Deirdre, "NO means NO" has to do with RL sexual confrontations, without regard to gender (and I quite agree with it), but it hasn’t got any meaning that applies in any way to internet communications. No one is being forcibly fucked or molested. There is a delete key. Even if – it’s not in the charter or moderator guidelines to act upon it. It’s a post and a response to a post. In your <snip you failed to answer a very key question, which was "did you read the charter and the moderator guidelines prior to posting ‘The Bottom Line’?" You might also notice that nowhere ‘after’ the "no, I don’t like it" thingie, the behavior/words weren’t continued in any posts (which is the only area of concern – by charter and guidelines) to the moderation team. If you don’t see this, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’m kewl with that, as your interpretation and your opinions are yours alone.

We disagree on the relevance of "No means no."  It is my position that no always means no, online or off, in a forum or in an email or face to face.. That the moderators also considered what took place in email— it’s not in the charter and guidelines (yes, I read it) — but it’s still common-sense right and just.  That’s my position. I am just a little bit piqued by your suggestion that my opinions may not be mine alone. Is there a particular reason you felt it necessary to include that remark? I’m not trying to fight with you, Elliott. I just wonder why you said that. If it’s not really important, I’ll let it alone. Deirdre

Response:

Meryl:  On the face of it, that looks like a reasonable question, and maybe it is completely so.  I started thinking for a minute on it, and the first thing that came to my mind was something like "if something irritates me/makes me anxious/causes any other undesirable emotions, and it takes the form of an internet message directed at me, why would I choose to READ it ?" If you felt "targeted" by me, for example, wouldn’t you just skim past my posts, dismissing them as non-productive for you, at the minimum, and possibly even anxiety-provoking?

Yes, I would but I know many women with anxiety that do not and who become very anxious in such situaions.   I am not female, so obviously I lack that perspective, and have also considered that there may be differing formats of this newsgroup – in terms of the way it’s presented, such that maybe a post "can’t" be totally ignored.  If my girlfriend felt "targeted" by something on the internet, my first thought would be to suggest that maybe she ought not to read it.  Is there something more arcane here that I’m missing, or just don’t have an awareness of ?

I am disappointed that some posters I know are trivialsing the anxiety expressed by a poster they know well. The field in which I work, or at least worked (another issue) has allowed me to hear disclosures from many young women who have felt fearful and in many cases been victims. I would guess that women who have had negative experiences are overly-represented in an anxiety ng. I aso believe that there are some who feel a need to defend themselves from misinformation. Through email, I know that there are a significant number of women who are not posting and are fearful of opening their inbox. As for myself, I am comfortable posting about this issue but not about a workplace harassment (not sexual) issue that I have been dealing with since May. It has left me, at times, highly anxious opening my work email account. I am away from work from now but the anxiety is still with me. I do not have a problem with Bob posting at asap. I do have a problem if he publishes personal information or information (I believe misinformation) about women I know well. I think the subject of the workings of asapm is a separate issue. We all have anxiety. The triggers differ. Some need a safe filtered environment. Meryl

Response:

However, NO means NO. It’s really as simple as that. Deirdre, "NO means NO" has to do with RL sexual confrontations, without regard to gender (and I quite agree with it), but it hasn’t got any meaning that applies in any way to internet communications. No one is being forcibly fucked or molested. There is a delete key.

I disagree. I teach young people that whether harassment is verbal, physical, sexual … it is still harassment. We spend a lot of time discussing telephone bullying and how to deal with it. Bullying by text messaging and emailing is endemic. The bottpm line is tell someone. Meryl

Response:

whether other women are feeling secure but not too many males with the same concerns about anxious women. can’t expect us to allow y"all ladies to get down here on the same level as us. Y"all stick to cookin’ and cleanin" and such and let "us" ponder those deep thoughts worthy of ponderin" – K

Response:

Jackie was uncomfortable because Bob came on way too strong with her, using lovey-dovey nicknames and the like.

hey Deirdre !  i promise not ta call ya darlin’…. but… (can i lick yer pussy?) ~tanya

Response:

I AGREEE , I am bit disoriented right now

translation:  "i’m feelin’ a bit’ah normalcy!" Lets put it this way, I can easily see a few people here being child molestors, killers and gossipers and computer  virus attackers wannabes  , but very few here have anything to do with anxiety but then again this wouldnt be so fun if everyone was just plain sick with anxiety would it? Whats next episode like?

Steve?  far be’t from ole belle ta be an expurt… BUTTTT!!!  (i kinda dun think they’ve ever been hit on in real life.) now me?  i can deal with bein’ lusted after.  i’m used to it. i’ve had lotsa practice. what’s that tell ya?  <wink – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I can guess can’t I?

Response:

Hi:   Interesting post.  My question is not rhetorical/designed as a pejorative questioning of your intellect or anything like that – I’d just like to know the actual answer so I can "best serve myself" by understanding the ‘big picture’.

translation:  "Hi, I’m Gary !  (the eternal diplopmat !) Question:  Did Bob make it known to the group that he was afflicted with Borderline Personality Disorder via a direct statement (e.g. "I was diagnosed with BPD") ?

MAKES NO BONES ‘BOUT IT !  (no pun, ah’course) (If the answer is anything other than "yes", how was this made known to you?)

Gary?  go read them posts.  everyone responds tha same.. i.e. ((((((((((((((((((i love you all)))))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((((((huggs)))))))))))))))))), (((((((((((((((((((((((honey, baby sweetheart)))))))))))))))))… but keep in mind… do NOT respond with "i love you" to anyone PERSONALLY !  (ya gott’ah say’t in a group sorta way) HEY !  THEM BOYS IS PROMOTIN’ ORGIES ! ASAPM = the INTERNATION SUPERHIGHWAY’S PLATO’S RETREAT! ASAPM = THE STEPFORD POSTERS OF AMERICA !  (ya seen one post’n there? ya seen em all….  i call it Alt.Support.Anxiety-Panic-MACRO  !  ) SOME people can’t handle reality.  let’m bore themselves ta tears with repetitive "yu’ll be ok, ((((((((((hugggggggggggggs)))))))))))))))… and play tha D/s roles as dictated.  (i love doormat submissives dictated to by’ah wannabe Dominant)… they’re fun ta watch… (WELCOME TO THA DICHOTOMY CLUB’AH AMERICA !) ME?  EAT ME, BEAT ME, TIE ME TO’AH TREE, MAKE ME WRITE BAD CHECKS, CUM ALL OVAH MUH TITS, TELL ME THAT YA LUMME… then GET… tha FUCK… OUT ! (now THAT’s what MY dreams’re made of) house… to mutually mas-tro-bate ! ) Thank you for taking the time to answer.

yer welcome !  (even tho i butted in, as usual) hey G-money?  think you can teach these heah gals how ta turn that puter off’r hit that "member ignore" button?   cuz you IS a genius. oh, btw.  i didn’t come in taday for’ah love fest.  (i’m merely checkin’ tha meter.) xoxoxoxoxoxo ~tanya (nice ass, babycakes) <licks

Response:

I have no doubt there will be someone who will call me a liar, as name-calling in this forum seems to be the standard. Thank you for not doing so.

(liar) HAHAHHAHA! ( i luv’ah challenge ) GURLLLLLLLLLL?  yer puttin’ tooooooooooo much emphasis on support (maybe via them hose that turn boys off). advice:  shave yer hoo hoo, tan them legs with sum bronzer from wally world, letchur hair down, getcha self sum 7" "cum fuck me heels"  …. and GOD !  (y’ull feeeeeeeeel like’ah wooooo-mannnnnnnnnnnnnn) and that prude stuff ya got goin’ on? that’ll disappear when ya joyfully have yer face slammed down’n a pillow screamin " CAN I CALL YA DADDDDDDDDDDDDDY?"  ::smack" "YESSSSSSSS, DADDDDDDDDDDDY"…. trust me… ( it only hurts if ya don’t R   E   L   A   X   !! ) hmmph!  get’s ya nowhere cept yer own private table at tha local library (trust ole belle.) ~tanya

Response:

The real bottom line, Deirdre?  The moderators CAN go back and revisit their own charter and guidelines, and change their minds. They could have Bob on moderated status. How can he hurt someone via posting in that forum? No one has to read or open his private emails. Who could feel not safe? If people have given their phone numbers or email addresses or even home addresses, they have to own up to their part.

A – FRIGGIN’ – MEN ! do these chicks realize they ain’t worth trackin’ down’n hauntin’ ? (personally, i’d be flattered, but hey) and a psycho/sociopath could much more easily follow ‘em home from tha grocery store’n have their way with’em.  personally, (i think they’re givin’ themselves WAY too much credik.) now if i didn’t wanna be noticed?  i’d SIT THA FUCK DOWN, SHUT THAT FUCK UP’N GET THA FUCK OUT ! (make sense?) AND STOP YER WHINY POSTIN.. YA AIN’T ALL THAT, SISTAH GURLLLLLLLL !  as name-calling in this forum seems to be the standard. Thank you for not doing so.

(wouldja care fer a spot’ah grey poop on, while yer at it, bein’ all proper’n holier’n thou?) …are ya cute?  if so, yer secure enuff ta handle a lil "sweetheart’n"… if yer not?  ya ain’t got shit ta worry ’bout  nobody wants ta dew ya anyways.  ya got’ah be purdy damn socially inept ta find "honey, sweetheart ((((((((((hugs))))))))))))" a threat.. ( ‘r quite fuckin’ ugly) …. either way, yer safe ! (i love tha bright side) Not once will you see them diss ASAP – as they use it to inform, as well as to have some fun (when they choose to). An open forum is always going to have name calling, nutters and….. some very informed and well intentioned posters as well.

translation:   (belle bungled THAT theory.) If you’re going to post here, you’re always at risk of getting bashed. No one can stop that, as it’s just the way the usenet anarchy works.

We work with it and through it – if that’s what one chooses to do. If not, many many groups have a moderated version, and as I’ve said far too many times, I believe in having a moderated ASAP, and have always supported it.

IF YA CAN’T TAKE THA KITCHEN, GET OUT’AH THA HEAT !  BUHHHHHHHH-bye. To diss this group, however, is the exact ‘post’ and ‘get outta the way’ that some accuse those in ASAP.M of doing. That’s not the real case at all, but the nutters

(i resemble that remark !) who think it is are only rewarded by such a post. I see no reason to begin or end a post with "I know that this is a place where…"

…there’s a TIMMMMMMMMMMMME for us……SOMEWHERE… a place… for us. Enjoy your T-Giving. I may be a turkey, but I ain’t gonna get eaten up

::gulp:: ~tanya

Response:

I completely agree with you there, Elliott. I don’t think I said that BPD is a reason not to like or support someone. It isn’t. That would be punishing the patient for being sick.

OH GREAT SCOTT.  can you not find another place ta go on the expansive international super highway where you ain’t at such RISK?  (try tha "scat" rooms.) yer spewin’ so much crap that i truly think you could make’ah mountainous pile’ah shit outtah’ah poddle turd. "uninvited….even tho i understand your fas-cin-a-tion with meeeeeeeeeeeeeee")  THANKS, Alanis, via MINO ! My post about Bob and BPD was to give information so people would understand why he acts the way he does. It’s up to every individual to decide whether or not to like him or support him.

::thinkin::  .. supportin’ DEEEEEEEEZ nutz .        doh ti dohhhhhhhh I don’t think I was warning anyone to keep away from him. I saw that there was this very important piece of information missing from the related threads here. I think the information needed to be disclosed to give a more complete picture of what happened with Bob and Jackie in ASAPM.

(tha first time i saw Bobaroonie on this forum i said "LET’S FUCK") he didn’t seem too slayed by that… maybe he has’ah sense’ah… HUMOR The subject had become quite clouded with all sorts of extraneous opinions and outbursts, and I felt I could clear things up a bit.

LOOK ALL AROUND, THERE’S NUTTIN" (no sexual inuendo intended there, ms. NOT’ah dirty word…getchur mind out’ah tha gutter)… there’s nuttin’ (whad’ah MESS)  but BLUEEEEEEEEEE SKIESSSSSssssssssssss…… (shall i g’on ?) There is one other thing. There are many women who have been stalked, seduced, threatened, and otherwise harassed on the internet over the years, and in real life even more frequently.

now when sumbody over a computer harms yer ass, lemme know… i’ll share yer sweet dreams witcha… YER JUST MAD CUZ I DIDN’T ASK TA TWEAK YER NIPPLES EARLIER !  (HEY..i can only do so much, i’m a bit lazy.) I’m one of them,

sum people’ll stalk anything that presents themselves as a scared lil ‘ boo hoo hoo ‘ target.  LEARN TA CARRY YERSELF AS A NON-VICTIM !  IT’S THA RULES’AH THA SKREET !!!!!!! THAT’S LIFE, BABYCAKES !  (learn ta take life’n big bites, thow down from tha flo’ down’n stop handin’ over ya power.) yeah, i thunk so. so I understand and sympathize when I read a post from a woman who is creeped out by a man coming on too strongly.

translation:  "i sympathize when i read a post from a woman who ain’t got tha sense god gave’ah pissant ta ignore a few good natured terms of endearments… cuz it’s so.. soo… FOREIGN !  face it… ya never experienced it.  ya dunno how ta skin’ah cat if ya never had a cat.  ya dunno how ta do that ‘double dutch’ if ya never had’ah rope.  ya dunno how ta handle "hey, ya hottie"… if ya never been…. well.. ya get tha picture? STAY AWAY FROM CONSTRUCTION SITES !  (buildin’ materials fallin’ on yer head’s tha least’ah yer worries, btw…) … them boys just might just get’ah wild hair, (them psychotic rapin’, molestin’, mean ole’ sociopaths that ain’t fit fer humanity) ‘n go (be still muh beatin’ heart, yer virgin ears and impending ‘fight’r …’n shoot low, they’re ridin’ shetland ponies on tha job site. trust me…  In this particular case, Jackie had every right to tell Bob to stop bothering her.

….uhhhhhhh…(wah?) He didn’t stop, apparently because of his disorder.

STOPPPPPPPPPPP WHEN IT’S CONVENIENT fer MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE , (but i can do whud’ah want cuz i’m a lil titty baby).’ ::snortle:: It doesn’t matter to the one who is frightened

you live in tha rain forest or sumthin?  THAT frightens ya?  GOD FUCKIN DAMN !  come up’n tha prooooooooo-jeckssssssss with ole belle and let’s watch ya squirm… (ummmm.. it’s makin’ me a tad moist just thinkin’ah that’n.) WHY the guy pestering her doesn’t stop when presented with her request to respect her boundary.

(ya create tha boundary for yerself, have tha wherewithall ta employ in yer on court.) ::bangin’ gavel:: HERESAY ! (overruled, hard evidence.) What matters is that she then feels unsafe,

::bangin head against’ah brick wall:: (sustained… it’s fun ta watch) ON THA and in ‘ real life’  y’all feel safe ????? ok.. that only leaves room for ONE conclusion. ~~~~~~~(they don’t nobody pay y’all no nevahmind’n person)~~~~~~~ TRY’AH CORSET !  (they lift, firm’n seperate.) AVID attention getters, take it from one who knows this shit first-hand. and in this case, Bob can’t do the right thing, and the cause appears to be his disorder.

( or he can’t see ya, so he’s visualizin’ sum kinda hot stuff mama. ) fantasies can be SOOOO inviting.   they WAY out-do reality 1,298,398 ta one. ASAPM is  a support group for people with anxiety and panic, and if one person refuses to stop making someone anxious, that person has stopped being supportive.

::still thikin:: DEEEEEEEEZ nutz. (and ta think i used ta just be a mere athletic supporter.) When it came to light that others had similar experiences to Jackie’s, it’s not surprising to me that the moderators had to act.

… and tha Oscar goes tewwwwwwwww : THE IMPROVISIONAL TEAM OF ASAPM MODERATORS ! (hey, i hear they’re up fer best ’screen play’ too, but who cares.. nobody followed their script.. not even THEM!) What they chose to do would not have been my first choice, but I’m not a moderator.

well, ya don’t say. yer more’ah tha elusive SUPERmodel, eh, dear? vaseline, vaseline, vaseline !  (a lil trick i learned ta keep that smile from stickin’ to yer gums, thunk i’d pass’t on… got’ah lumme ! i share muh secrets. <wink) The real bottom line, Deirdre?  The moderators CAN go back and revisit their own charter and guidelines, and change their minds.

can i revisit muh youth’n get these damn boobs off muh knees? (tha odds’ah them two thangs happnin’d be ’bout even, ya reckon?) They could have Bob on moderated status.

(can we still fuck?) Yes, I am sure that is possible.

OH GOODY !  ::doin’ tha happy dance:: How likely is it?

depends on Bob’s desperation level. What would it take for them to change their minds?

DAMN ! i dunno.. (if they do would’ah still be worthy of a blow job’r two, Bob willin?)  I CLEAN UP !  ::gulp:: yer pessimism is startin’ ta bring me down… let’s change tha subjeck. What would you recommend for the criteria on which the appropriateness of his posts is based?

for Bob to always remember:  "IT’S ALL ABOUT BELLE !!!" Same as before?

no, before i’d ask him ta cuddle afterwards… he’d say "WHY?  I’M DUN, BITCH"… so SOME things just gotta change. Same as everyone else’s?

oh, so now i’m just one’ah tha pack.. (he’s cheatin’ on me… i’m gonna cry.) Special rules for BPD?

no, Big Purdy Dingalings are treated just fairly as lil LBPs… (Lil Bitty Peckers) < I’m just asking. yer just horny.  ’s’ok… we all have our crosses ta bear. (agin, vaseline, vaseline, vaseline… a lil trick i learned to keep yer lips from stickin… agin, i’m willin’ ta share muh secrets.) How can he hurt someone

NOW we’re back to tha face’n tha pillow sitch-eee-ay-shun. via posting in that forum?

postin’, my ASS !… da boy’s PRODDIN !  (agin, vaseline, vaseline, vaseline.) He’s already demonstrated that by telling Jackie he was going to tell her he loves her whether she liked it or not.

(hell, i’d settle for’ah ‘reach around’ ! ) That’s scary to a lot of women.

yeah, gettin’ it from bahind always is… but oh, so EXCITING ! (owwww?) agin… vaseline, vaseline, vaseline. (i should be gettin’ a kick-back from that there petroleum jelly cump’ny if ya ask me…. fa real.) It’s  scary to me.

it’s only scary tha first time. It’s scary to Jackie.

common sense works in many instances… it’s kinda my stock answer for anything that involves bein’ in a ‘tight squeeze’. There’s no way of knowing how much farther he might take things,

(if yer a good gurl, another inch’r two) and that’s scary as well.

nah, after that first 8.5… it’s gravy.. i swear. You don’t have to hit someone or blackmail someone to hurt them.

now’ah black male?  (we’re talkin’ a whole nuther can’ah worms, gurly gurl.) "Whether you like it or not"

AMEN !  they take what they want !!.. (that kinda makes me a tad damp, also.. ummmmmmmm) is a phrase that carries a lot of power,

::breathin’ heavy NOW:: especially in a support forum where people need to feel safe.

BYOC !  bring yer own condom.. (it’s so much cheaper’n a college education, i hear tell.) No one has to read or open his private

::coverin’ eyes::… this next word could get real embarrassin’ for one as shy’s muhself. emails.

WHEW !  (now ’she-males’ would’ah thrown me fer’ah loop, i tell ya.) I agree.

oh good.  you ain’t all about chicks wif dicks neither?  WOW !  WE’RE TWINS ! ::group hug:: Who could feel not safe?

(another she-male?) … but in tha game of pitchin’ vs. catchin.. whoever slides in bafore them balls hit tha wall is "SAFE" If people have given their phone numbers or email addresses or even home addresses, they have to own up to their part.

tanya moore 616 main st montevallo, alabama … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If this isn’t true than Jackie should make a PUBLIC post in ASAPM asking the moderators to allow Bob back in. How can his posting in the group cause any harm? You and me both know that’s not going to happen Elliott. In fact all members of ASAPM with a lick of decency at all should request that Bob be allowed back in the group. Allowed a second chance. Moderated groups are supposed to be somewhat democratic. Why in the world would the guy want to go back to that group after all that has happened? There’s no way in hell that I’d want to have anything to do with a group that banned me. Bob wasn’t banned by the group, he was banned by the man hating nut job Jackie. It unbelievable that the only ‘man’ in ASAPM with enough balls left to defend him is Elliott. I guess that shouldn’t be much of a surprise. Now that Kinder has left the group I don’t think there are any men left in the group.

So what ? Who gives a rat’s ass ? There are other groups that might actually offer support.  Let the women turn it into an electronic Steel Magnolias if that’s what they want. Start a new group and don’t let them in. How long are you guys going to grieve and grouse over these tiny potatoes ?

Response:

Meryl said: – I can see women worrying about whether other women are feeling secure but not too many males with the same concerns about anxious women. "male-thang", – we’re not supposed to expect you gals to get down here on our level and the important stuff. We stand back and let the ladies take care of the cookin, cleanin’ and "lite" stuff,  and let the "men" ponder those other deep thoughts worth ponderin’ – K

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to the stone age chiseled out: Gary asked: Question:  Did Bob make it known to the group that he was afflicted with Borderline Personality Disorder via a direct statement (e.g. "I was diagnosed with BPD") ?  (If the answer is anything other than "yes", how was this made known to you?) I remember he told the group at least once that he had been diagnosed with BPD. I think the first time was in an "introducing myself" type of post. Seems to me he also talked to Margrove in another thread about having BPD. Maybe some of the other ASAPM posters remember more specifics. Lori here has told quite the same about herself (in being BPD), and the description you posted from the NIMH fits her to a ‘T’ (make no mistake about it).  Is that a reason for those who like her to stop liking her?  Is that a reason for those who support her to stop supporting her? Is that a reason for people who don’t know her to be cautioned to NOT know her or to give her a chance?

Thanks, Elliot.  (It’s "Laurie", btw).  BPD is like any other disorder. *If* the person with a disorder wants to be as "normal" (whatever that means) as possible, the disorder has to be dealt with.  Meds, therapy, DBT, CBT…  all very important to be healthy and (relatively) happy.  The thing about BPD is we tend to like chaos, unmanageability, and drama.  Why? Because it keeps our minds active.  The hardest thing for a BPD person is to be bored.  We don’t know how to just sit down and do nothing.  For others, this is called ‘relaxing/relaxation’.  It’s funny that I’m writing this because I talked to my folks about this very thing yesterday.  My mom was having a bit of a panic attack…  for no reason.  (There’s usually never a reason…  that’s what makes it so tough).  I gave Mom one of the techniques I have learned.  You focus on something with your eyes open.  You are aware of the sounds around you, i.e., the TV, people talking, etc.  But in your mind, you look at what you’re focused on, and you inhale saying to yourself "just this"…  then exhale and say "breath".  "Just this… breath".  It works every time, and it relaxes the mind.  It helps with anxiety, panic or boredom (for the BPD person). I am very lucky that I know I have self worth, but I know that I can create a mountain out of a molehill instantaneously.  I tend to have racy thoughts, and in those types of moments, I want to "fix it".  For me, the most dangerous of all is to try and "fix it" when I’m in a manic stage and/or with racy thoughts.  My main goal every moment is to keep the DRAMA out of my life.  It helps with not being too sad, too mad, even too happy.  This entire thing has taken me the past 3 years to understand.  My working this "program" has only been a work in progress since August.  I am amazed (and I’m patting myself on the back here) that I am as mentally healthy right now.  Losing the man I love to a divorce is the biggest thing in my life atm, but I’m coping.  Day to day I have to find a way to also deal with my alcoholism/addictions.  And so far, day to day, since August, it’s been working!!!!  (This is where I get to say "yay me"!) No – it’s her burden to bear and her disorder to deal with. Support comes in many forms and for many types of people.

And the person with the disorder HAS to want to be in a healthy mode. Support within, so to speak. I personally have had ‘experience’ with Lori, and it’s not worth repeating, as it would only cause her hurt. That’s not my intent – nor my desire.

And I thank you for that, Elliot.  I don’t want to say, "oh, I’m so new and improved".  I’m not.  But I am AWARE of me now.  Something I’ve *never, EVER* had a hold of. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The real bottom line, Deirdre?  The moderators CAN go back and revisit their own charter and guidelines, and change their minds. They could have Bob on moderated status. How can he hurt someone via posting in that forum? No one has to read or open his private emails. Who could feel not safe? If people have given their phone numbers or email addresses or even home addresses, they have to own up to their part. as name-calling in this forum seems to be the standard. Thank you for not doing so. Dierdre, I’ve always liked you, and still do. I think that you’re making a bit of a mistake tho. You’re dissing this group as if it’s mud/scum (you did the same in your first post). I assure you, it isn’t. Philip and Meryl, no matter how often I may agree or disagree with them, for example, post here just as often as they post the the ‘M’ group. That’s not the extent of it, but just two examples.

Two very good examples, imo. Not once will you see them diss ASAP – as they use it to inform, as well as to have some fun (when they choose to). An open forum is always going to have name calling, nutters and….. some very informed and well intentioned posters as well.

Well, there is a lot of chaos in here, but a few of us regulars still manage to give out advice to newbies now and then.  Even helping just one person is good enough for me to stay in here. If you’re going to post here, you’re always at risk of getting bashed. No one can stop that, as it’s just the way the usenet anarchy works. We work with it and through it – if that’s what one chooses to do. If not, many many groups have a moderated version, and as I’ve said far too many times, I believe in having a moderated ASAP, and have always supported it.

It’s worked out for the best, for the most part.  I know where I stand with ASAPM.  I don’t have a problem with my "status" there.  It’s not going to ruin my day…  nor, has it ever.  The only thing I have made clear is that I regret my part in things a few years ago. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To diss this group, however, is the exact ‘post’ and ‘get outta the way’ that some accuse those in ASAP.M of doing. That’s not the real case at all, but the nutters who think it is are only rewarded by such a post. I see no reason to begin or end a post with "I know that this is a place where…" Enjoy your T-Giving. I may be a turkey, but I ain’t gonna get eaten up                _,–"^^"-.,_          _.-"~^`~-.    .-~`^~"-._      ,="`"-._     .—-.     _.-"`"=,     ;_       "-. (0 )( 0) .-"       _;    .’ `~"=,_    ’. / /.’    _,="~` `.    ;_       "-. _.-)  (-._ .-"       _;    : ^~"-.,___.’  (    )  `.___,.-"~^ ;    :        _:     `–’     :_        :     ‘._,-~"` :’:          :’: `"~-,_.’        ’.,_.-`.            .’`-._,.’                  //    \                (((~    ~)))

Very COOL turkey, Elliot!!!  `Hope **everyone** had a lovely day yesterday. Peace. —

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if the prostate is fried through and through, the sperm ducts, seminal vesicles and other contributory glands have no avenues for throughput.  So, if he does not notice a differnece in pre- and post-brachy emissions, then some of his prostate has to be viable.  Of course, I am not a doctor. That’s my assumption also, pending discussion with the urologist.  "No difference" would be an exaggeration, but the extent of recovery suggests that some prostate tissue survived and grew or recovered function over the year since seeding. Which suggests the possibility that some cancerous tissue survived too. My rad onc likes to get a biopsy done at two years; that and the ongoing series of PSA tests should tell us.

Yeah, who’dathunk that one might be concerned by potency?

Response:

Alan Meyer wrote…snip… I also have wondered whether a functioning prostate is a good or bad thing after radiation.  Radiation doesn’t destroy the prostate the way surgery does.  I think that it damages the DNA in the cells – the tumor cells more than the healthy ones. But isn’t the prostate tissue is still alive?

I suspect that most forms of RT (SI+EBRT may be the exception) do leave some healthy prostate tissue behind after the RT has done its work. Although I don’t "know", I suspect that tissue remaining behind, be it from RP, RT, cryo, etc., is not a good thing.  What ever caused the PCa in the first place (genetic mutation and/or …) has fertile ground to produce PCa cells again.  I don’t know if this could be clinically distinguishable from a recurrence, but it would produce the same results as a local recurrence. When I told my radiation oncologist that I was still producing some ejaculate he gave me an explanation that I can’t remember,

The Cowpers gland can produce some semen like material.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – During the period of actual radiation, my orgasms (such as they were, I was also on Lupron) produced a very small amount of bloody ejaculate.  Afterwards, the blood cleared up but the volume of ejaculate was tiny, occasionally non-existent.  After another six months or so the volume began to increase, and although it feels like a lot, it’s still significantly less than before and has an entirely different consistency. I also have wondered whether a functioning prostate is a good or bad thing after radiation.  Radiation doesn’t destroy the prostate the way surgery does.  I think that it damages the DNA in the cells – the tumor cells more than the healthy ones. But isn’t the prostate tissue is still alive?      Alan

    I always thought that the entire prostate and all the tissue was shrunken and then completely destoyed by the radiation, and absorbed by the body? — "I’m not pompous, I’m SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios http://www.sinrodstudios.com/ Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/

Response:

During the period of actual radiation, my orgasms (such as they were, I was also on Lupron) produced a very small amount of bloody ejaculate.  Afterwards, the blood cleared up but the volume of ejaculate was tiny, occasionally non-existent.  After another six months or so the volume began to increase, and although it feels like a lot, it’s still significantly less than before and has an entirely different consistency. I also have wondered whether a functioning prostate is a good or bad thing after radiation.  Radiation doesn’t destroy the prostate the way surgery does.  I think that it damages the DNA in the cells – the tumor cells more than the healthy ones. But isn’t the prostate tissue is still alive? When I told my radiation oncologist that I was still producing some ejaculate he gave me an explanation that I can’t remember, but he thought it was normal and not a problem. He said that he’s never seen any evidence of disease progression that was not preceded by a rise in PSA.  That’s still the key marker.      Alan

Response:

if the prostate is fried through and through, the sperm ducts, seminal vesicles and other contributory glands have no avenues for throughput.  So, if he does not notice a differnece in pre- and post-brachy emissions, then some of his prostate has to be viable.  Of course, I am not a doctor.

That’s my assumption also, pending discussion with the urologist.  "No difference" would be an exaggeration, but the extent of recovery suggests that some prostate tissue survived and grew or recovered function over the year since seeding. Which suggests the possibility that some cancerous tissue survived too. My rad onc likes to get a biopsy done at two years; that and the ongoing series of PSA tests should tell us. — Greg

Response:

What has your doctor said about needing the FloMax this far out?  Is that unusual?

Thirty percent of patients need it for more than 3 months, and the number drops slowly after that; two years seems to be the worst-case scenario, according to "Prostate Brachytherapy Made Complicated." Good luck in February.  I hope you see a nice reduction in that PSA.

Many thanks.  So do I <grin — as discussed elsewhere in this thread, the possible survival of some prostate tissue has its worrying side. — Greg

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last Wednesday was the first anniversary of my being seeded: Greg Louis At age 58, PSA 5.4 rising triggered biopsy 2004-06-22, Gleason 3+3, T1c, prostate volume 27 cc.  Monotherapy, 55 I-125 seeds implanted 2004-11-16. nuisances, not major woes. Right after the implant, sex was pretty normal except there was no ejaculate at all.  In August I began to expel a few drops of thick fluid, and just a few days ago there was, for the first time, a nearly-normal volume.  So far, at least, no sign of impotence. Greg  Volume of what? You can’t be producing semen, with no prostate…. Sounds to me like a semi-fried prostate.  After a year?

I’m not in a position to examine the ejaculent, but I know that if the prostate is fried through and through, the sperm ducts, seminal vesicles and other contributory glands have no avenues for throughput.  So, if he does not notice a differnece in pre- and post-brachy emissions, then some of his prostate has to be viable.  Of course, I am not a doctor.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last Wednesday was the first anniversary of my being seeded: Greg Louis At age 58, PSA 5.4 rising triggered biopsy 2004-06-22, Gleason 3+3, T1c, prostate volume 27 cc.  Monotherapy, 55 I-125 seeds implanted 2004-11-16. nuisances, not major woes. Right after the implant, sex was pretty normal except there was no ejaculate at all.  In August I began to expel a few drops of thick fluid, and just a few days ago there was, for the first time, a nearly-normal volume.  So far, at least, no sign of impotence. Greg  Volume of what? You can’t be producing semen, with no prostate…. Sounds to me like a semi-fried prostate.

  After a year? — "I’m not pompous, I’m SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios http://www.sinrodstudios.com/ Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/

Response:

Good to hear from you Greg.  It is very important for newly diagnosed patients to hear from someone like yourself.  The good and the bad.  Please keep the group updated on your progress. What has your doctor said about needing the FloMax this far out?  Is that unusual?  I was a surgical patient, so I am not that familiar with what you are going through.  I hope you are able to wean off the medication soon. Good luck in February.  I hope you see a nice reduction in that PSA. David S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last Wednesday was the first anniversary of my being seeded: Greg Louis At age 58, PSA 5.4 rising triggered biopsy 2004-06-22, Gleason 3+3, T1c, prostate volume 27 cc.  Monotherapy, 55 I-125 seeds implanted 2004-11-16. Here’s a brief review of the year. The actual experience was "a piece of cake."  That was my comment to the next patient, who looked a bit nervous.  Very little pain the next night, alleviated by a 400mg Advil, and none at all thereafter.  I was working, though from home, the day after the procedure, and I resumed weight training on the fourth day. The usual urinary side-effects — burning, frequency, urgency — took effect and peaked at six weeks, just as expected.  Less expected (by me anyway) was a turn for the worse starting around 14 weeks after implantation, mainly consisting of slow urination with a tendency to dribble afterward.  The urologist doubled my FloMax intake, to 0.8mg/day from 0.4, and this seemed to help.  However, I’m still on that 0.8mg dose after all this time; with 0.4, I get slow and dribbly. Never needed any sort of padding, though. Overall I’d say that the symptoms have been tolerable.  Minor nuisances, not major woes. Right after the implant, sex was pretty normal except there was no ejaculate at all.  In August I began to expel a few drops of thick fluid, and just a few days ago there was, for the first time, a nearly-normal volume.  So far, at least, no sign of impotence. PSA values fell nicely from test to test until 10 months, which was 0.62 compared to the previous reading’s 0.59.  Nobody’s worrying yet, but obviously the next few tests will be of interest.  Next one’s due in early February. FWIW I’d make the same treatment choice if I had to relive last year’s decision making. — Greg

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last Wednesday was the first anniversary of my being seeded: Greg Louis At age 58, PSA 5.4 rising triggered biopsy 2004-06-22, Gleason 3+3, T1c, prostate volume 27 cc.  Monotherapy, 55 I-125 seeds implanted 2004-11-16. nuisances, not major woes. Right after the implant, sex was pretty normal except there was no ejaculate at all.  In August I began to expel a few drops of thick fluid, and just a few days ago there was, for the first time, a nearly-normal volume.  So far, at least, no sign of impotence. Greg  Volume of what? You can’t be producing semen, with no prostate….

Sounds to me like a semi-fried prostate.

Response:

Last Wednesday was the first anniversary of my being seeded: Greg Louis At age 58, PSA 5.4 rising triggered biopsy 2004-06-22, Gleason 3+3, T1c, prostate volume 27 cc.  Monotherapy, 55 I-125 seeds implanted 2004-11-16. nuisances, not major woes. Right after the implant, sex was pretty normal except there was no ejaculate at all.  In August I began to expel a few drops of thick fluid, and just a few days ago there was, for the first time, a nearly-normal volume.  So far, at least, no sign of impotence. Greg

  Volume of what? You can’t be producing semen, with no prostate…. — "I’m not pompous and agrogant,  I’m SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Response:

Last Wednesday was the first anniversary of my being seeded: Greg Louis At age 58, PSA 5.4 rising triggered biopsy 2004-06-22, Gleason 3+3, T1c, prostate volume 27 cc.  Monotherapy, 55 I-125 seeds implanted 2004-11-16. Here’s a brief review of the year. The actual experience was "a piece of cake."  That was my comment to the next patient, who looked a bit nervous.  Very little pain the next night, alleviated by a 400mg Advil, and none at all thereafter.  I was working, though from home, the day after the procedure, and I resumed weight training on the fourth day. The usual urinary side-effects — burning, frequency, urgency — took effect and peaked at six weeks, just as expected.  Less expected (by me anyway) was a turn for the worse starting around 14 weeks after implantation, mainly consisting of slow urination with a tendency to dribble afterward.  The urologist doubled my FloMax intake, to 0.8mg/day from 0.4, and this seemed to help.  However, I’m still on that 0.8mg dose after all this time; with 0.4, I get slow and dribbly. Never needed any sort of padding, though. Overall I’d say that the symptoms have been tolerable.  Minor nuisances, not major woes. Right after the implant, sex was pretty normal except there was no ejaculate at all.  In August I began to expel a few drops of thick fluid, and just a few days ago there was, for the first time, a nearly-normal volume.  So far, at least, no sign of impotence. PSA values fell nicely from test to test until 10 months, which was 0.62 compared to the previous reading’s 0.59.  Nobody’s worrying yet, but obviously the next few tests will be of interest.  Next one’s due in early February. FWIW I’d make the same treatment choice if I had to relive last year’s decision making. — Greg

Response:

Question:

So I look around and find… An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, their circumstances, or their actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form: 1) Person A makes claim X. 2) Person B makes an attack on person A. 3) Therefore A’s claim is false. The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made). Example of Ad Hominem Bill: "I believe that abortion is morally wrong." Dave: "Of course you would say that, you’re a priest." Bill: "What about the arguments I gave to support my position?" Dave: "Those don’t count. Like I said, you’re a priest, so you have to say that abortion is wrong. Further, you are just a lackey to the Pope, so I can’t believe what you say." Uh-HUH. VERY clear. And all this time…I thought that  ’ad hominem’ was what Ralph Kramden used to keep repeating on ‘The Honeymooners’. Shows what "I" know. Ron B. Chicago

Response:

Oh, yeah, forgot about Canada Bob…. oh, that racist… what was his name? Began with a "W". —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys need to visit the dog ng’s if you want to see the fur fly.  This place is tame compared to those. Observation:  This post sparked the very kind of OT family argument that I suspect was being referred to in "carried out with respect and decorum". Although no one approached the boiling point my guess is that Heather is not planning to invite I.P. to dinner anytime soon. I came to this ng shortly after being diagnosed.  Confused, scared, and never been on a ng before.  This indeed became "family" to me.  I still think of it that way, although I do not post all the often anymore.  It still is a comfortable place for me to come back to though.  I agree with Steve that there are a lot of great people here.  And when someone leaves because of a disagreement, Canada Bob for example, that makes me sad. In case you are wondering, I woke up at five A.M., took the dog out, and now cannot go back to sleep.  So, I am hanging out here.  Hope that is okay? David S. New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction. The subscription process, which is simple, can be started at: http://listserv.acor.org/archives/prostate.html Regards, Steve J

Response:

"David S." wrote I woke up at five A.M., took the dog out, and now cannot go back to sleep. So, I am hanging out here.  Hope that is okay?

Well, it WOULDDA been if ya hadn’t turned on them dang lights and WOKE ME UP.  ;-) I.P.

Response:

"David S." also wrote You guys need to visit the dog ng’s if you want to see the fur fly.  This place is tame compared to those.

And there’s a lesson there. I witnessed two great forums slide into that dog-eat-dog morass permanently when some aggro pit bulls and began spraying ad hominem at anyone they didn’t like, from top dogs to new pups. Objectors were quickly mauled, fewer and fewer old dogs spoke up, and before long the place contained more dog  $#!+  than dog food. The dog training books were chewed up, to be supplanted by a bunch of Great Danes standing around seeing who could piss higher up the telephone pole, knowledge be damned. And that’s no tall tail. I.P.

Response:

"Glassman" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    We love ya but lighten up IP will ya? I’m not defending anyone, because I hate you all anyway. No one needs to back up anything they say or feel with documented info. I know that this is what you crave at all times, but trust the reader to make his own judgement sometimes as to fact or opinion. Most of the folks here aren’t qualified to give anything more than an opinion anyway. I know this is very very important to you, and you’ll keep telling us why that is, but in reality we are all regular people that have only our personal experience to go by. The newbies and oldies alike don’t need a guardian of truth and documentation to keep the world honest.  All your studying obviously gives you comfort in your trying times, but it’s just not the case for all of us. Count me as one of the idiots that likes to chat, spread false rumors, launch personal attacks, and otherwise create an atmosphere for chaos. (Snarky…. look it up).

I couldn’t agree more, if this forum were alt.icecream’n'cookies or alt.football. Its REAL name changes all that. I.P.

Response:

"Steve Jordan" wrote about moderated forums: Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction.

There’d be far less rancor here if you and Heather would try that, rather than sliding into ad hominem the minute you’re asked to back up your claims with facts. While I’ve added well-deserved labels to otherwise relevant discussions once or twice in my last 25,000 USENET posts, and even —   heavens! — gone off topic, ad hominem is apparently you two’s first resort and a ready substitution for relevant discourse. It accomplishes nothing positive, it’s irrelevant to PCa, and it reflects poorly on both you two and the forum. I.P.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Steve Jordan" wrote about moderated forums: Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction. There’d be far less rancor here if you and Heather would try that, rather than sliding into ad hominem the minute you’re asked to back up your claims with facts. While I’ve added well-deserved labels to otherwise relevant discussions once or twice in my last 25,000 USENET posts, and even — heavens! — gone off topic, ad hominem is apparently you two’s first resort and a ready substitution for relevant discourse. It accomplishes nothing positive, it’s irrelevant to PCa, and it reflects poorly on both you two and the forum. I.P.

    We love ya but lighten up IP will ya? I’m not defending anyone, because I hate you all anyway. No one needs to back up anything they say or feel with documented info. I know that this is what you crave at all times, but trust the reader to make his own judgement sometimes as to fact or opinion. Most of the folks here aren’t qualified to give anything more than an opinion anyway. I know this is very very important to you, and you’ll keep telling us why that is, but in reality we are all regular people that have only our personal experience to go by. The newbies and oldies alike don’t need a guardian of truth and documentation to keep the world honest.  All your studying obviously gives you comfort in your trying times, but it’s just not the case for all of us. Count me as one of the idiots that likes to chat, spread false rumors, launch personal attacks, and otherwise create an atmosphere for chaos. (Snarky…. look it up). — "I’m not pompous and agrogant,  I’m SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Response:

Did a search on "Snarky"…I can’t read Russian?? http://www.snarky.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip – a lot of the bickering that was being talked about in the first place just not the case for all of us. Count me as one of the idiots that likes to chat, spread false rumors, launch personal attacks, and otherwise create an atmosphere for chaos. (Snarky…. look it up). — "I’m not pompous and agrogant,  I’m SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Response:

You guys need to visit the dog ng’s if you want to see the fur fly.  This place is tame compared to those. Observation:  This post sparked the very kind of OT family argument that I suspect was being referred to in "carried out with respect and decorum". Although no one approached the boiling point my guess is that Heather is not planning to invite I.P. to dinner anytime soon. I came to this ng shortly after being diagnosed.  Confused, scared, and never been on a ng before.  This indeed became "family" to me.  I still think of it that way, although I do not post all the often anymore.  It still is a comfortable place for me to come back to though.  I agree with Steve that there are a lot of great people here.  And when someone leaves because of a disagreement, Canada Bob for example, that makes me sad. In case you are wondering, I woke up at five A.M., took the dog out, and now cannot go back to sleep.  So, I am hanging out here.  Hope that is okay? David S.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction. The subscription process, which is simple, can be started at: http://listserv.acor.org/archives/prostate.html Regards, Steve J

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did a search on "Snarky"…I can’t read Russian?? http://www.snarky.com/ <snip – a lot of the bickering that was being talked about in the first place just not the case for all of us. Count me as one of the idiots that likes to chat, spread false rumors, launch personal attacks, and otherwise create an atmosphere for chaos. (Snarky…. look it up). — "I’m not pompous and agrogant,  I’m SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

David, Here’s a link to the Urban Dictionary http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snarky The Russian site might lead one to think that JK is from present day Brighton Beach rather than the old Coney Island. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out.

Not sure how you would have visibility into what the moderators actually do, suffice it say that most of their time is spent keeping the dialogue focused (often through private e-mails) and helping people with subscription issues. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction.

Usually, especially in the recent past, but, as in all groups, there have been some very trying times…Ron

Response:

On November 19, ron replied to me: Not sure how you would have visibility into what the moderators actually do, suffice it say that most of their time is spent keeping the dialogue focused (often through private e-mails) and helping people with subscription issues.

I know the moderator and his, er, moderate style. He is far from a dictator. Quoting me: Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction.

Ron replied: Usually, especially in the recent past, but, as in all groups, there have been some very trying times…

I’m mystified. What, exactly, is Ron’s point? I’m anxious to learn…. Regards, Steve J "You live and learn — or you don’t live long." –Lazarus Long

Response:

 If someone rubs you the wrong way you can always ignore,

And, hey . . . maybe the wrong way works BETTER now. In fact, it DOES!  ’-) I.P.

Response:

On November 19, ron replied to me: Not sure how you would have visibility into what the moderators actually do, suffice it say that most of their time is spent keeping the dialogue focused (often through private e-mails) and helping people with subscription issues. I know the moderator and his, er, moderate style. He is far from a dictator.

No one here is a dictator either, what does that have to do with the point we were discussing, namely what the moderators at PPML do?  As one of the moderators, I was merely pointing out that your assessment of what they do was off the mark. Quoting me: Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction. Ron replied: Usually, especially in the recent past, but, as in all groups, there have been some very trying times… I’m mystified. What, exactly, is Ron’s point? I’m anxious to learn….

My point is that all groups go through difficult times and struggles, debates sometimes become acrimonius, be it PPML, PHML, or this group. No group is immune to such problems.  Sticking with things, working our way through problems, increases our understanding of one another.  It usually leads to positive growth for all involved…Ron.

Response:

Thanks, Steve.  But, I have found that the debates, and the debates about the debates, are usually short lived compared to the time spent here.  And, I have never met a greater bunch of people, on a par. Steve K and JK Sinrod rather surprise me. I did not suggest an either/or choice between this NG and PPML. For example, I’ve been a subscriber to PPML for fully as long as I’ve been a participant in ascp. Regards, Steve J

 " New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction."   Did we misunderstand your above statement? Sure sounds like you were the one that was "fed up"? "I’m not pompous and agrogant,  I’m SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios www.sinrodstudios.com Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

Response:

On November 19, Glassman replied to me: Quoting me: "New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction." Did we misunderstand your above statement?

So it appears. Sure sounds like you were the one that was "fed up"? Nah. I’ve come through tremendous flamewars with hardly a singed eyebrow. This silliness is a walk in the park. There’s really no opposition that’s worthy of respect. All of us have, or our loved ones have, a vicious and merciless killer to deal with. Kiddy romps with yapping puppies are nothing to fear. Regards, Steve J "Among other evils which being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised." –Niccolo Machiavelli

Response:

Based on your reply, and my experience and opinion as to your honesty, I will acquiesce that you did not mean to imply that we leave.  However, so that you understand from whence I came to that conclusion, I leave you with your words, "New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List." — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08 non Illegitimi carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Steve.  But, I have found that the debates, and the debates about the debates, are usually short lived compared to the time spent here.  And, I have never met a greater bunch of people, on a par. Steve K and JK Sinrod rather surprise me. I did not suggest an either/or choice between this NG and PPML. For example, I’ve been a subscriber to PPML for fully as long as I’ve been a participant in ascp. Regards, Steve J "I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death." –Thomas Paine

Response:

I wish you well, jimhoney. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08 non Illegitimi carborundum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Steve.   Goodbye all. New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction. The subscription process, which is simple, can be started at: http://listserv.acor.org/archives/prostate.html Regards, Steve J

Response:

Thanks, Steve.  But, I have found that the debates, and the debates about the debates, are usually short lived compared to the time spent here.  And, I have never met a greater bunch of people, on a par.

Steve K and JK Sinrod rather surprise me. I did not suggest an either/or choice between this NG and PPML. For example, I’ve been a subscriber to PPML for fully as long as I’ve been a participant in ascp. Regards, Steve J "I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death." –Thomas Paine

Response:

New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction.

   Geez what a bunch of babies. A little in-fighting & debate, whether cordial or not never hurt anyone.  Some guys like to yell and scream, and are transparently troubled in other areas.  So what? This forum is for the masses. We need all kinds of folks here to help each other.  Last year we had a guy complain about the open sexual content as silly as that sounds in a group with erectile dysfunction!  He left in a huff. If someone rubs you the wrong way you can always ignore, but please don’t leave. We need each other. "I’m not pompous, I’m SNARKY" JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios http://www.sinrodstudios.com/ Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/

Response:

Thanks, Steve.  But, I have found that the debates, and the debates about the debates, are usually short lived compared to the time spent here.  And, I have never met a greater bunch of people, on a par. I’m staying. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08 non Illegitimi carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction. The subscription process, which is simple, can be started at: http://listserv.acor.org/archives/prostate.html Regards, Steve J

Response:

On November 19, Clarence Crow replied to my post: Been on it a couple of times and canned it, due to the deluge volume of irrelevant contributions that flood my email:

Hm. Well, I reckon the idea of what constitutes a deluge or flood or irrelevant is different as between CC and me. As usual, folks can and will decide for themselves what is best for them. (ka-snip) Don’t let those crocs get much higher than the ankles…. Regards, Steve J "Dear Lord, give me chastity and self-restraint … but not yet, O Lord, not yet!" — Saint Augustine

Response:

New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction. The subscription process, which is simple, can be started at: http://listserv.acor.org/archives/prostate.html Regards, Steve J

Response:

Thanks Steve.   Goodbye all. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – New folks and any others who are fed up with screeching and yammering can check out the Prostate Problems Mailing List. This is a moderated forum, the moderation primarily confined to keeping spammers out. Debates are carried out with respect and decorum, a welcome distinction. The subscription process, which is simple, can be started at: http://listserv.acor.org/archives/prostate.html Regards, Steve J

Response:

<snip The subscription process, which is simple, can be started at: http://listserv.acor.org/archives/prostate.html

<snip Been on it a couple of times and canned it, due to the deluge volume of irrelevant contributions that flood my email: Over the years, I’ve found Usenet to me more suitable for me as I can read the headers and then select which articles that interest me. Then,that’s me from d/under with crocs snapping at my ankles as the big red boomers (‘roos) try to dodge the Mack trucks (a Yank’s take on Oz.) — Reader to complete… — Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake: — Regards — CC

Response:

Question:

Mike H My understanding is that the injections work with no input from the nerves. The pills depend on some nerve function. Have you tried the small needles (gauge #31, length 5/15")? I find they make the injection process very easy and close to painless. Steve U – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike H, The injections relax smooth muscle in the arteries, so fresh arterial blood with a high oxygen content fills the corpora, the same as happens in a natural erection. The punp pulls venous blood, that is already partially depleated of oxygen, back in to the corpora. Makes sense, Steve.  But…. why can’t my muscles relax on their own, without the injection? Do the nerve bundles control this mechanism?  So… if I can use the injection and get an erection, does that mean the equipment still works, but that it just doesn’t get the stimulus it needs to do so? My surgery was 3 years ago, so I’m doubtful I’ll ever get my function back at this point.  But no reason to stop trying! MikeH With the pump, you are not supposed to be up more than 30 minutes. You can have 120 minutes with the shots. My experience is that that sensation is exquisite with shots, and reduced with the pump. It might be just coincinence, but I used lots of shots and lots of pills, and I got most of my natural erectile function back. I used the pump very little because the shots worked so well. If I’m going to use something, I want to get more than 100% of normal. With the shots it is easy to have sex twice with the same erection. The seduction is the weak link! We are all different, and nothing works for everybody. I think it is smart to at least try all the hardon helpers.

Response:

Mike H My understanding is that the injections work with no input from the nerves. The pills depend on some nerve function. Have you tried the small needles (gauge #31, length 5/15")? I find they make the injection process very easy and close to painless. Steve U

Hi, Steve…. I’ve used 30 guage…. but didn’t  know there was a 31 guage!  Thanks! MikeH

Response:

A couple comments about the injections. One, for me it sure does not "feel" like a normal erection.  Please understand that I am not knocking the injections.  Just trying to report as objective a truth as I can from my own experience.  One thing we learn here is that we are all different, so what is bad for me may be very good for you.  In my opinion, the "feeling" is not natural at all, at least not like before RRP. Two, I have had mixed results with the shots.  The Caverject was really uncomfortable, but it was the first try after the MUSE (many here have reported that the discomfort lessens with sustained use).  Same drug is used of course, but the injection produced an erection that was very uncomfortable so I moved on from there to the pump.  That worked fine to produce the erection, but I never got to where the rings would sustain the erection (at the time I was actually using the pump more to get blood into the penis, so more for therapy.  From the discussion here it looks as if that effort was misguided).  Then to trimix, which worked but it again was uncomfortable.  The bimix did not work at all, so it looks like prostaglandin or nothing.  At this point I have had to increase the dose of trimix to produce the desired result, 70 units on the insulin syringe scale, but the erection again comes with discomfort.  Looks like I cannot win, which is one reason I am again seriously considering the AMS 700 implant. Three, the injections do not hurt, but watch out for veins.  Saturday night I caught one and it did hurt and I got some drops of blood.  This is the first time I experienced any pain with the injections, so just be sure to learn how to do it right and the injection itself will be no problem.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was recently talking with a 42 year old who had RP a year ago.  His uro has a PA who works with all the patients who undergo PCa treatment… to try to help them regain erectile function.  Novel idea, no?? Anywho…. we were talking about injections.. and I mentioned that I use the pump.  He said his doc discouraged him from using the pump…. and *encouraged* the injections… According to his uro, the pump pulls blood into the penis.. but not into the corpora cavernosum, whereas the injections allow the flow into the Corpora Cavernosum.  So…. his doc felt the injections were *more* therapeutic than the pump could ever be. Just wondering if anyone here has heard this line of thought before… and if there might be anything to this. Take care! MikeH 3 years post-op, continent, undetectable, no erectile function….

Response:

Thanks, John.. After three years, I’m doubtful I’ll get back more than I have.  But no harm in trying! The injections work…. and last for about two hours!  I use the pump occasionally, too. Just wish I could get hard on my own… but that seems to be a thing of the past. Thanks for the reply! MikeH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello MH    My Dr. prescribed injections for me.  I did buy a Rejoyn Pump, and used it, and it was not the same as the injection at all. The injections did help and sometimes they could be painful. I found it best to use the injection in the morning, and you were able to "walk off" the effects.  At night it seemed it took forever for things to subside, and it could be painful. I made it through, and now have 80% to 90% normal Erectile Function, and with viagra I do get 100%. John Loomis I was recently talking with a 42 year old who had RP a year ago.  His uro has a PA who works with all the patients who undergo PCa treatment… to try to help them regain erectile function.  Novel idea, no?? Anywho…. we were talking about injections.. and I mentioned that I use the pump.  He said his doc discouraged him from using the pump…. and *encouraged* the injections… According to his uro, the pump pulls blood into the penis.. but not into the corpora cavernosum, whereas the injections allow the flow into the Corpora Cavernosum.  So…. his doc felt the injections were *more* therapeutic than the pump could ever be. Just wondering if anyone here has heard this line of thought before… and if there might be anything to this. Take care! MikeH 3 years post-op, continent, undetectable, no erectile function….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The doctor is probably right.  The injections allow the tissues to relax and allow blood to fill the penis in a manner closer to a normal erection. The pump creates a vacuum and that pulls blood into the penis against the resistance of the tissues.  Also, it only affects the portion of the penis below the constriction ring. Makes sense… In the beginning when I used the injections I thought I had developped Peyronies…. very pronounced downward bend.  But now when I inject that doesn’t happen.  I think it must have been the initial shortening of the urethra that pulled the penis in a downward bend, as it now seems to have cleared up.  I use the pump, too… but will probably try to use the injections more now, as this makes sense. Still don’t quite understand, though.  If the muscles can relax and allow the blood to flow in… and produce an erection like in the old days… then why can’t I have an erection without the injection?  Why are the muscles not relaxing like they used to??  Do the nerve bundles control that??

That’s right.  The sequence of events that take place when a man has an erection is actually quite complicated.  You can find descriptions of what happens in books like those by Walsh and Scardino, and I think there is also a pretty complete description at the Phoenix website. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks! MikeH

Response:

Hi David, This is just to round out the discussion for guys considering the shots. You mentioned that the sensation is not as good for you. Sorry to hear that. For me, I’d say it is a little different than nature, but not at all less pleasurable.  I play with the dose all the time and it is a little different with each one. The variety is nice. Having almost no refractory period is a big plus. Steve U

Response:

Mike H, The injections relax smooth muscle in the arteries, so fresh arterial blood with a high oxygen content fills the corpora, the same as happens in a natural erection. The punp pulls venous blood, that is already partially depleated of oxygen, back in to the corpora.

Makes sense, Steve.  But…. why can’t my muscles relax on their own, without the injection? Do the nerve bundles control this mechanism?  So… if I can use the injection and get an erection, does that mean the equipment still works, but that it just doesn’t get the stimulus it needs to do so? My surgery was 3 years ago, so I’m doubtful I’ll ever get my function back at this point.  But no reason to stop trying! MikeH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With the pump, you are not supposed to be up more than 30 minutes. You can have 120 minutes with the shots. My experience is that that sensation is exquisite with shots, and reduced with the pump. It might be just coincinence, but I used lots of shots and lots of pills, and I got most of my natural erectile function back. I used the pump very little because the shots worked so well. If I’m going to use something, I want to get more than 100% of normal. With the shots it is easy to have sex twice with the same erection. The seduction is the weak link! We are all different, and nothing works for everybody. I think it is smart to at least try all the hardon helpers.

Response:

The doctor is probably right.  The injections allow the tissues to relax and allow blood to fill the penis in a manner closer to a normal erection. The pump creates a vacuum and that pulls blood into the penis against the resistance of the tissues.  Also, it only affects the portion of the penis below the constriction ring.

Makes sense… In the beginning when I used the injections I thought I had developped Peyronies…. very pronounced downward bend.  But now when I inject that doesn’t happen.  I think it must have been the initial shortening of the urethra that pulled the penis in a downward bend, as it now seems to have cleared up.  I use the pump, too… but will probably try to use the injections more now, as this makes sense. Still don’t quite understand, though.  If the muscles can relax and allow the blood to flow in… and produce an erection like in the old days… then why can’t I have an erection without the injection?  Why are the muscles not relaxing like they used to??  Do the nerve bundles control that?? Thanks! MikeH

Response:

I was recently talking with a 42 year old who had RP a year ago.  His uro has a PA who works with all the patients who undergo PCa treatment… to try to help them regain erectile function.  Novel idea, no?? Anywho…. we were talking about injections.. and I mentioned that I use the pump.  He said his doc discouraged him from using the pump…. and *encouraged* the injections… According to his uro, the pump pulls blood into the penis.. but not into the corpora cavernosum, whereas the injections allow the flow into the Corpora Cavernosum.  So…. his doc felt the injections were *more* therapeutic than the pump could ever be.

The doctor is probably right.  The injections allow the tissues to relax and allow blood to fill the penis in a manner closer to a normal erection.   The pump creates a vacuum and that pulls blood into the penis against the resistance of the tissues.  Also, it only affects the portion of the penis below the constriction ring. Having said that, let me add that I used a pump for 18 months, and in my case, erctions did eventually return.  I don’t know if recovery would have been sooner or more complete had I used injections. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just wondering if anyone here has heard this line of thought before… and if there might be anything to this. Take care! MikeH 3 years post-op, continent, undetectable, no erectile function….

Response:

Mike H, The injections relax smooth muscle in the arteries, so fresh arterial blood with a high oxygen content fills the corpora, the same as happens in a natural erection. The punp pulls venous blood, that is already partially depleated of oxygen, back in to the corpora. With the pump, you are not supposed to be up more than 30 minutes. You can have 120 minutes with the shots. My experience is that that sensation is exquisite with shots, and reduced with the pump. It might be just coincinence, but I used lots of shots and lots of pills, and I got most of my natural erectile function back. I used the pump very little because the shots worked so well. If I’m going to use something, I want to get more than 100% of normal. With the shots it is easy to have sex twice with the same erection. The seduction is the weak link! We are all different, and nothing works for everybody. I think it is smart to at least try all the hardon helpers. Steve U

Response:

I was recently talking with a 42 year old who had RP a year ago.  His uro has a PA who works with all the patients who undergo PCa treatment… to try to help them regain erectile function.  Novel idea, no?? Anywho…. we were talking about injections.. and I mentioned that I use the pump.  He said his doc discouraged him from using the pump…. and *encouraged* the injections… According to his uro, the pump pulls blood into the penis.. but not into the corpora cavernosum, whereas the injections allow the flow into the Corpora Cavernosum.  So…. his doc felt the injections were *more* therapeutic than the pump could ever be. Just wondering if anyone here has heard this line of thought before… and if there might be anything to this. Take care! MikeH 3 years post-op, continent, undetectable, no erectile function….

Response:

Hello MH     My Dr. prescribed injections for me.  I did buy a Rejoyn Pump, and used it, and it was not the same as the injection at all. The injections did help and sometimes they could be painful. I found it best to use the injection in the morning, and you were able to "walk off" the effects.  At night it seemed it took forever for things to subside, and it could be painful. I made it through, and now have 80% to 90% normal Erectile Function, and with viagra I do get 100%. John Loomis

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was recently talking with a 42 year old who had RP a year ago.  His uro has a PA who works with all the patients who undergo PCa treatment… to try to help them regain erectile function.  Novel idea, no?? Anywho…. we were talking about injections.. and I mentioned that I use the pump.  He said his doc discouraged him from using the pump…. and *encouraged* the injections… According to his uro, the pump pulls blood into the penis.. but not into the corpora cavernosum, whereas the injections allow the flow into the Corpora Cavernosum.  So…. his doc felt the injections were *more* therapeutic than the pump could ever be. Just wondering if anyone here has heard this line of thought before… and if there might be anything to this. Take care! MikeH 3 years post-op, continent, undetectable, no erectile function….

Response:

Question:

DonC, The doses vary a lot. I was using alprostadil day 13 post op. Back then I needed 5-7.5mcg. A few months latter it was lasting too long so I started cutting back. Now 2mcg is enough, and 4.4 is enough to have sex twice with the same erection. So you may find it works better after some time. My requirements with bimix also dropped. Now I can function without drugs, but with the pills is very good. Dose requirements can drop with those too, once they start to kick in. I still use shots sometimes because they are so good, and with insurance, they are cheaper than pills. I think that frequent use of these drugs helped me get my natural erection back. The rehab can be fun, but takes a little effort at the beginning. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, Don C, A couple of ideas: Buy the alprostadil (Caverject or Edex) in 20mcg vials, and not as the Caverject Impulse system (the one with the prefilled syringe.) It is cheaper, you can use smaller needles, and depending on the dose, there can be more than one dose per vial. You need to keep any leftovers in the refrigerator. Works great! $27.45 per 20mcg vial. Isn’t 20mcg the normal dose?  Interesting that the 40mcg vials (in 6 packs) cost $34.72 each which is the equivalent of $17.36 per 20mcg. Edex costs about the same. Prostin VR P is sold only in 500mcg vials for $400. Maybe we can start a coop : ) Try Bimix. The ingredients are generics (papaverine and phentolamine) you get 20-40 doses for about $120. Works great and needs no refrigeration. Get a new doctor. That thought has come to mind. But since Caverject in 40mcg vials is only $4 more per dose than TriMix, it’s not a big enough issue to dump him. So far this entire 18 month process from biopsy, through RRP and quarterly PSAs has cost me less than $100 out of pocket. Dr. Mulhall, the head of the Sexual Medicine section at Cornell and Sloane Kettering, uses trimix almost exclusivly because it works for most people. There is no excuse for not trying it. Alprostadil is the only FDA approved one for erection by injection, so some less informed docs are reluctant to use bimix or trimix. The doctor works for you! The preceeding is all based on my personal experience. Steve U Thanks for the information!

Response:

Hello Dave,     Wish you luck with the injection.  It worked well for me, and I was given prostaglandin, and it was mixed in a small vial, and had to be refrigerated. I also bought diabetic needles, and used those. Use on, throw it away…. I think when I purchased the drug, it cost about 200.00. I did not even want to deal with Blue Cross, since they do not even pay for viagra, and or give you less dose than the Dr. Anyway, injection worked great for me, and sometimes the meds was painful. At night, if I used the injection, I would be up for hours afterwards waiting for things to subside… I finally found out that a.m. was the best, the injection worked marvelous, and after getting up, showering, and walking, there were no signs of pain and such, like in the evening… I believe it is because your body starts working and moving things out of your body in the morning.  At night, you are ready for bed, and using an injection, and laying there, takes time for it to (go away) Use the medicine of choice, and it will help. I do not need that, and use about 1/3 of 100mgs viagra once in a bit for what they call a "Blue Hardon" sometimes, without anything I do fine… Wish you best, John Loomis

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just picked up my first dose(s) of Caverject.  My insurance picked up most of the tab but the non-insurance cost for the 8 doses is $226.65. Yikes.  It’s interesting that the same insurance will also pay for Levitra but not Viagra.  They claim there is no difference between the two so they pay for the least expensive. Dave Perry

Response:

Steve,

Don C, A couple of ideas: Buy the alprostadil (Caverject or Edex) in 20mcg vials, and not as the Caverject Impulse system (the one with the prefilled syringe.) It is cheaper, you can use smaller needles, and depending on the dose, there can be more than one dose per vial. You need to keep any leftovers in the refrigerator. Works great!

$27.45 per 20mcg vial. Isn’t 20mcg the normal dose?  Interesting that the 40mcg vials (in 6 packs) cost $34.72 each which is the equivalent of $17.36 per 20mcg. Edex costs about the same. Prostin VR P is sold only in 500mcg vials for $400. Maybe we can start a coop : ) Try Bimix. The ingredients are generics (papaverine and phentolamine) you get 20-40 doses for about $120. Works great and needs no refrigeration. Get a new doctor.

That thought has come to mind. But since Caverject in 40mcg vials is only $4 more per dose than TriMix, it’s not a big enough issue to dump him. So far this entire 18 month process from biopsy, through RRP and quarterly PSAs has cost me less than $100 out of pocket. Dr. Mulhall, the head of the Sexual Medicine section at Cornell and Sloane Kettering, uses trimix almost exclusivly because it works for most people. There is no excuse for not trying it. Alprostadil is the only FDA approved one for erection by injection, so some less informed docs are reluctant to use bimix or trimix. The doctor works for you! The preceeding is all based on my personal experience. Steve U

Thanks for the information!

Response:

Just picked up my first dose(s) of Caverject.  My insurance picked up most of the tab but the non-insurance cost for the 8 doses is $226.65. Yikes.  It’s interesting that the same insurance will also pay for Levitra but not Viagra.  They claim there is no difference between the two so they pay for the least expensive.   Dave Perry

Response:

Don C, A couple of ideas: Buy the alprostadil (Caverject or Edex) in 20mcg vials, and not as the Caverject Impulse system (the one with the prefilled syringe.) It is cheaper, you can use smaller needles, and depending on the dose, there can be more than one dose per vial. You need to keep any leftovers in the refrigerator. Works great! Try Bimix. The ingredients are generics (papaverine and phentolamine) you get 20-40 doses for about $120. Works great and needs no refrigeration. Get a new doctor. Dr. Mulhall, the head of the Sexual Medicine section at Cornell and Sloane Kettering, uses trimix almost exclusivly because it works for most people. There is no excuse for not trying it. Alprostadil is the only FDA approved one for erection by injection, so some less informed docs are reluctant to use bimix or trimix. The doctor works for you! The preceeding is all based on my personal experience. Steve U

Response:

At the hospital pharmacy, where my doctor practices, the trimix costs me somewhere around $60.00, and that includes ten insulin type syringes.   At the commercial compounding pharmacy (the retail stores do not make this up) is cost me $119.00, so needless to say I get it at the hospital pharmacy. Be sure to buy a box of alcohol wipes too.  You will need those to clean the top of the bottle before taking out a dose and to clean the area where you do the injection.  That cost me something like $4.00 for a couple hundred. Be sure to get clear instructions on how to make the injection.  Done correctly = it does not hurt.  Try to avoid veins.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I discussed going the shot route with my Uro and he agreed although he’s anti-TriMix and insists on Caverject — but that’s another issue. When I got home I checked my drug insurance and discovered it doesn’t cover Caverject, Edex or Prostin VR or any other drug in the alprostadil family. My out of pocket cost would be $26 per shot!!    Gulp…… My drug plan does provide 100mg Viagra for $2.30 a pill but it doesn’t do anything for me right now. I’m wondering what other without coverage for these alprosatdil drugs or TriMix are paying. Don C

Response:

I discussed going the shot route with my Uro and he agreed although he’s anti-TriMix and insists on Caverject — but that’s another issue. When I got home I checked my drug insurance and discovered it doesn’t cover Caverject, Edex or Prostin VR or any other drug in the alprostadil family. My out of pocket cost would be $26 per shot!!    Gulp…… My drug plan does provide 100mg Viagra for $2.30 a pill but it doesn’t do anything for me right now. I’m wondering what other without coverage for these alprosatdil drugs or TriMix are paying. Don C

Response:

Question:

Two old guys, one 80 and one 87, were sitting on their usual park bench one morning. The 87 year old had just finished his morning jog and wasn’t even short of breath. The 80 year old was amazed at his friend’s stamina and asked him what he did to have so much energy. The 87 year old said; "Well, I eat Italian bread every day.. It keeps your energy level high and you’ll have great stamina with the ladies." So, on the way home, the 80 year old stops at the bakery. As he was looking around, the lady asked if he needed any help. He said, "Do you have any Italian bread?" She said, "Yes, there’s a whole shelf of it. Would you like some?" He said, "I want 5 loaves." She said, "My goodness, 5 loaves…don’t you think by the time you get to the 5th loaf, it’ll be hard?" He replied, "I can’t believe it, everybody in the world knows about this Italian bread thing but me.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two old guys, one 80 and one 87, were sitting on their usual park bench one morning. The 87 year old had just finished his morning jog and wasn’t even short of breath. The 80 year old was amazed at his friend’s stamina and asked him what he did to have so much energy. The 87 year old said; "Well, I eat Italian bread every day.. It keeps your energy level high and you’ll have great stamina with the ladies." So, on the way home, the 80 year old stops at the bakery. As he was looking around, the lady asked if he needed any help. He said, "Do you have any Italian bread?" She said, "Yes, there’s a whole shelf of it. Would you like some?" He said, "I want 5 loaves." She said, "My goodness, 5 loaves…don’t you think by the time you get to the 5th loaf, it’ll be hard?" He replied, "I can’t believe it, everybody in the world knows about this Italian bread thing but me.

WOW!  The answer to my problem; on my way to get 5 loaves!

Response:

While standing in line at the drug store, one owned by two old maid sisters, the man in front of me asked: "I was in here last week. I got Viagra. My erection hasn’t gone down for a week. What can you give me for it?" The lady druggist said she’s ask her sister. A few minutes later she came back and said: "How about $500, and a third of the business?"  :) moto

Response:

haaaaaaaaaaa……ha i like it john loomis

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two old guys, one 80 and one 87, were sitting on their usual park bench one morning. The 87 year old had just finished his morning jog and wasn’t even short of breath. The 80 year old was amazed at his friend’s stamina and asked him what he did to have so much energy. The 87 year old said; "Well, I eat Italian bread every day.. It keeps your energy level high and you’ll have great stamina with the ladies." So, on the way home, the 80 year old stops at the bakery. As he was looking around, the lady asked if he needed any help. He said, "Do you have any Italian bread?" She said, "Yes, there’s a whole shelf of it. Would you like some?" He said, "I want 5 loaves." She said, "My goodness, 5 loaves…don’t you think by the time you get to the 5th loaf, it’ll be hard?" He replied, "I can’t believe it, everybody in the world knows about this Italian bread thing but me.

Response:

Bev, See what you’ve started? You might even get "Steve the Strict" to smile ,please be cautious. Steve, please don’t be offended, my attitude follows the Serenity Prayer, with the following revisions added. God grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change or understand; the courage to attempt a  change of opinion; if it’s possible in this world . The wisdom to know that I’m talking to a stubborn ass, and that no amount of reasonable conversation will have any effect at all. And last but not least, the wisdom to be silent when appropriate. Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two old guys, one 80 and one 87, were sitting on their usual park bench one morning. The 87 year old had just finished his morning jog and wasn’t even short of breath. The 80 year old was amazed at his friend’s stamina and asked him what he did to have so much energy. The 87 year old said; "Well, I eat Italian bread every day.. It keeps your energy level high and you’ll have great stamina with the ladies." So, on the way home, the 80 year old stops at the bakery. As he was looking around, the lady asked if he needed any help. He said, "Do you have any Italian bread?" She said, "Yes, there’s a whole shelf of it. Would you like some?" He said, "I want 5 loaves." She said, "My goodness, 5 loaves…don’t you think by the time you get to the 5th loaf, it’ll be hard?" He replied, "I can’t believe it, everybody in the world knows about this Italian bread thing but me.

Response:

Tom … Steve smile?? I think it’s Steve’s ‘disposion’ that makes him the way he is. He has an ‘even’ disposition. He’s miserable ALL the time.  :) News flash: A couple in their 90s announced they were getting divorced. Asked why they waited so long, they were quoted as saying: "We wanted to wait till all the kids were dead."  :( moto

Response:

On October 12, the snide Tom Cular wrote to Beverley: See what you’ve started? You might even get "Steve the Strict" to smile ,please be cautious. Steve, please don’t be offended, my attitude follows the Serenity Prayer, with the following revisions added.

Snip childish attempt at insults. If TC just can’t tolerate my posts, let him plonk them. Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Steve J

Response:

Question:

I posted earlier about a fast rising PSA. I haven’t talked to my internist yet about it, but I’ve made an appointment with a urologist in Philadelphia for November 10th. Just wondered if anyone had recomendations for urologists with a speciality in PC in this area, or wherever (Hell, it’s my life I"m willing to travel.) PSA has gone from 1.6 in Jan 2004 to 5.4 about two weeks ago, and I know enough to know this ain’t good. Thanks for any advice, info. Ed

Response:

you are close enough to Hopkins….they are the best. I’d go to your local guys and get a biopsy. The procedure  sucks but hopefully you’ll get a definitive read,  then get 2nd opinion from Hopkins. My brother an MD went to Hopkins for his RP. I am in similar boat. Good luck to you. If you have it, I hope it’s contained.

Response:

The surgeons at Johns Hopkins know everything there is to know about this disease. jimhoney RRP at J-H, age 52, cured, no significant aftereffects – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I posted earlier about a fast rising PSA. I haven’t talked to my internist yet about it, but I’ve made an appointment with a urologist in Philadelphia for November 10th. Just wondered if anyone had recomendations for urologists with a speciality in PC in this area, or wherever (Hell, it’s my life I"m willing to travel.) PSA has gone from 1.6 in Jan 2004 to 5.4 about two weeks ago, and I know enough to know this ain’t good. Thanks for any advice, info. Ed

Response:

hey ed  ’ johns hopkins was my first choice but they weren’t in our insurance group so i went with my second choice ,the university of pennsylvania .i got the chief of urology ,Dr. Allen Wein .i am 3 and a half weeks out of surgury and so far everything is ok. i go through not quite a half of a pad a day on average and i get a little bit of a response from mr. winky.  good luck to you in wherever you go . Harry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I posted earlier about a fast rising PSA. I haven’t talked to my internist yet about it, but I’ve made an appointment with a urologist in Philadelphia for November 10th. Just wondered if anyone had recomendations for urologists with a speciality in PC in this area, or wherever (Hell, it’s my life I"m willing to travel.) PSA has gone from 1.6 in Jan 2004 to 5.4 about two weeks ago, and I know enough to know this ain’t good. Thanks for any advice, info. Ed

Response:

I posted earlier about a fast rising PSA. I haven’t talked to my internist yet about it, but I’ve made an appointment with a urologist in Philadelphia for November 10th. Just wondered if anyone had recomendations for urologists with a speciality in PC in this area, or wherever (Hell, it’s my life I"m willing to travel.) PSA has gone from 1.6 in Jan 2004 to 5.4 about two weeks ago, and I know enough to know this ain’t good. Thanks for any advice, info. Ed

   Don’t put the cart before the horse Ed.  Look for a PCa specialist when you find out you need one.  Get to a urologist and get it checked out. Could be several benign things also. — JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios http://www.sinrodstudios.com/ Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/

Response:

Ed : Dr. Alan Wein or Dr. Bruce Malkowicz of the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.  The team there is terriffic. http://pennhealth.com/WagForm/MainPage.aspx?config=provider&P=PP&ID=1398 Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I posted earlier about a fast rising PSA. I haven’t talked to my internist yet about it, but I’ve made an appointment with a urologist in Philadelphia for November 10th. Just wondered if anyone had recomendations for urologists with a speciality in PC in this area, or wherever (Hell, it’s my life I"m willing to travel.) PSA has gone from 1.6 in Jan 2004 to 5.4 about two weeks ago, and I know enough to know this ain’t good. Thanks for any advice, info. Ed

Response:

Sal,  Thanks.  Internist is putting me on antibiotics and re-doing PSA after that. Just in case, I have an appointement lined up November 10th at Penn.     Internist talked about possibly cancelling it if the PSA drops, but I’m thinking it might be worth a second opinion no matter what happens.  Thanks again,  Ed

Response:

Sal,  Thanks.  Internist is putting me on antibiotics and re-doing PSA after that. Just in case, I have an appointement lined up November 10th at Penn.     Internist talked about possibly cancelling it if the PSA drops, but I’m thinking it might be worth a second opinion no matter what happens.  Thanks again,  Ed

 The only way to know for sure is a biopsy, and even that is a crapshoot if it’s very small.  All you can di is take it one step at a time, and don’t let it infuence your daily life. — JK Sinrod Sinrod Stained Glass Studios http://www.sinrodstudios.com/ Coney Island Memories www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/

Response:

Ed, I’m not sure you are at the point of looking for a surgeon yet. I suspect you will want to find out if you have PCa or not, then read relevant parts of books like that of Walsh and Strum, visit authoritative cancer sites and post questions to this well-informed NG, then finally decide if you want surgery or some other treatment. If you do eventually elect surgery, I had a terrific experience with Dr. Ash Tewari at Weil Cornell Columbia in NYC.  (Is that close enough to Philly?) He is head of Robotic Surgery and has performed well over a thousand RRPs. I found him to be not only quite knowledgeable, but a kind, concerned and modest human being who took time to answer questions and address concerns. He has gathered a sharp team around him as well. Incidentally, his statistics look quite good, but by his own admission, there is not enough data yet on robotic surgery to compare outcomes definitively to those of classical RP. His office number is 212 746-5638. He did my surgery August 10, and I am down to a pad a day and beginning to show erectile signs of life.  (I’m 60 years young, Gleason 3+3=6, cancer in both lobes, negative margins, 7-weeks post-op PSA 0.0). Michael K

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I posted earlier about a fast rising PSA. I haven’t talked to my internist yet about it, but I’ve made an appointment with a urologist in Philadelphia for November 10th. Just wondered if anyone had recomendations for urologists with a speciality in PC in this area, or wherever (Hell, it’s my life I"m willing to travel.) PSA has gone from 1.6 in Jan 2004 to 5.4 about two weeks ago, and I know enough to know this ain’t good. Thanks for any advice, info. Ed

Response:

Thanks for your response. I appreciate your prayers and assistance, and encouragement. Johns Hopkins is definitley on my list. Thanks again, Ed

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ed — you’re doing the right thing to find out as much as you can about the disease and who/where/how/when to treat it.  From personal experience, I agree with DominicM.  Baltimore and Philly are close enough I would strongly (again, based on MY experience) encourage at least talking to folks at Hopkins. I chose to travel from South Carolina to Hopkins and Dr. Partin (of the Partin Tables fame) performed my RRP on August 12.  Cancer in both lobes (T2b prior to surgery); pathological Gleason 6 (3+3), confined to the gland.  No seminal vesicle or lymph node involvement.  Using less than a pad/day, only for extreme stress incontinence.  Sexual intercourse with my wife at 5 1/2 weeks with less than 25 mg of Viagra. Praying for you best! Lamentations 3:21-23

Response:

Michael, Thanks for the comments. As you said, I’m not at the stage of looking for a surgeon yet,but I want to be ready.  I’m collecting info on surgeons. Your comments on Tewari impressed me. I don’t expect a surgeon to be my pal, or hold my hand, but I’d like some empathy.   At any rate, thanks.   I’m on the antibiotics for now, approximately 18 days. I’ll post again with results, and more questions, one way or the other. Ed

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ed, I’m not sure you are at the point of looking for a surgeon yet. I suspect you will want to find out if you have PCa or not, then read relevant parts of books like that of Walsh and Strum, visit authoritative cancer sites and post questions to this well-informed NG, then finally decide if you want surgery or some other treatment. If you do eventually elect surgery, I had a terrific experience with Dr. Ash Tewari at Weil Cornell Columbia in NYC.  (Is that close enough to Philly?) He is head of Robotic Surgery and has performed well over a thousand RRPs. I found him to be not only quite knowledgeable, but a kind, concerned and modest human being who took time to answer questions and address concerns. He has gathered a sharp team around him as well. Incidentally, his statistics look quite good, but by his own admission, there is not enough data yet on robotic surgery to compare outcomes definitively to those of classical RP. His office number is 212 746-5638. He did my surgery August 10, and I am down to a pad a day and beginning to show erectile signs of life.  (I’m 60 years young, Gleason 3+3=6, cancer in both lobes, negative margins, 7-weeks post-op PSA 0.0). Michael K I posted earlier about a fast rising PSA. I haven’t talked to my internist yet about it, but I’ve made an appointment with a urologist in Philadelphia for November 10th. Just wondered if anyone had recomendations for urologists with a speciality in PC in this area, or wherever (Hell, it’s my life I"m willing to travel.) PSA has gone from 1.6 in Jan 2004 to 5.4 about two weeks ago, and I know enough to know this ain’t good. Thanks for any advice, info. Ed

Response:

Ed, Relax! Quickly increasing PSA is not ever good.  But, "bad" is relative. At this point, your chances of having cancer are, maybe, 50/50.  Maybe less. Maybe as little as 33%. Your chances of dying from cancer, at this point, are maybe 10%. You really don’t know enough about your diagnosis to panic.  Your doctor may prescribe antibiotics and tell you to wait another three months for another PSA. So, relax.  Worry a bit.  Read a lot. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 non Illegitimi carborundum

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I posted earlier about a fast rising PSA. I haven’t talked to my internist yet about it, but I’ve made an appointment with a urologist in Philadelphia for November 10th. Just wondered if anyone had recomendations for urologists with a speciality in PC in this area, or wherever (Hell, it’s my life I"m willing to travel.) PSA has gone from 1.6 in Jan 2004 to 5.4 about two weeks ago, and I know enough to know this ain’t good. Thanks for any advice, info. Ed

Response:

Ed — you’re doing the right thing to find out as much as you can about the disease and who/where/how/when to treat it.  From personal experience, I agree with DominicM.  Baltimore and Philly are close enough I would strongly (again, based on MY experience) encourage at least talking to folks at Hopkins. I chose to travel from South Carolina to Hopkins and Dr. Partin (of the Partin Tables fame) performed my RRP on August 12.  Cancer in both lobes (T2b prior to surgery); pathological Gleason 6 (3+3), confined to the gland.  No seminal vesicle or lymph node involvement.  Using less than a pad/day, only for extreme stress incontinence.  Sexual intercourse with my wife at 5 1/2 weeks with less than 25 mg of Viagra. Praying for you best! Lamentations 3:21-23

Response:

Question:

Hello Peter,     You sound like you are on a good recovery tract. I had  similiar problems that you speak of and they do diminish. Dr. Brooks encouraged me to use injection since I had no erectile function, and I did use a pump.  Viagra gave me headaches also. After about 1.5 to 2 years I started to regain normal erctile function, and did not use the injection and or pump anymore. Now, with about 35 mgs of Viagra I can achieve wonderful erectile confidence. John Loomis

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just got back from seeing Dr Brooks at Stanford. First post-op PSA is <0.05, so we were both in very good humour. Next test, mid-January. Other stuff: – Continence almost perfect (as it has been from the first few days). I still have to be careful when passing wind (I did leak a squirt the other day when I had some uncomfortable gas and strained to fart), and I no longer have the total confidence that I had pre-operation – it’s not that I ever do leak, it’s just that I have the sense that leaking is a possibility where it never was before. That said, we were out hiking the other day and I was jogging downhill with a full bladder and had no problems at all, likewise I can move, lift, etc. freely without leaking. – I pee with a strong stream. Dr Brooks says that by this stage the risk of strictures is low, especially as I have had a strong stream throughout. One more thing to cross off the list. – Squirting when aroused appears to be diminishing. Sadly, I don’t have enough data points to be sure about that. – When aroused I still produce a little mucous. Nothing remotely like the pre-op output (no more sticky spot on the bed-linen), but interesting – ISTR that there are some extra little glands downstream of the sphincter that produce mucous. I forgot to ask Dr Brooks about that. – Erectile function is still poor (some engorgement, but nowhere near enough to be usable). If anything, I think I have slightly less than I did 3-4 weeks ago, but it’s hard to be sure (or to be sure, it’s soft). Sensation is less than pre-op (and again, possibly slightly diminished just at the moment). Pills give me a blocked up nose and a headache, but not a great deal of improvement, if any at all. We’ll see how things go over the next few months. I may look into a pump and/or injections, haven’t decided if/how long to wait before doing that. – As noted elsewhere I still have some internal twinges; Dr Brooks considers these normal and unimportant. – Incision is still slightly tender. Not enough to be bothersome, but I don’t like anything brushing against it. – I still have some perineal discomfort when sitting on my office chair. I had that pre-op, so it may be unrelated (perhaps caused by slight nerve damage from cycling). OTOH, I notice some penile shrinkage when I sit on that chair for a couple of hours; Dr Brooks thinks that this is probably dues to pressure plus residual internal swelling from the op (which he expects to resolve over time). – I have some mild oedema in my lower belly around the bottom half of the incision. Dr Brooks says that this is quite common, may be permanent, and he has no idea what causes it. — Peter Headland

Response:

That mucous is from Cowper’s gland, working as it should.  Don’t worry about it. jimhoney

Response:

Peter, It sounds like you are doing very well. While you are waiting for your nerves to wake up, don’t be reluctant to try the shots. I had sex using them starting day 13. I found that having to wait 30-40 minutes after orgasm for my erection to go away was a huge boost when I needed one. They don’t hurt much once you get a little practice, and the results can be fantastic. Steve U – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just got back from seeing Dr Brooks at Stanford. First post-op PSA is <0.05, so we were both in very good humour. Next test, mid-January. Other stuff: – Continence almost perfect (as it has been from the first few days). I still have to be careful when passing wind (I did leak a squirt the other day when I had some uncomfortable gas and strained to fart), and I no longer have the total confidence that I had pre-operation – it’s not that I ever do leak, it’s just that I have the sense that leaking is a possibility where it never was before. That said, we were out hiking the other day and I was jogging downhill with a full bladder and had no problems at all, likewise I can move, lift, etc. freely without leaking. – I pee with a strong stream. Dr Brooks says that by this stage the risk of strictures is low, especially as I have had a strong stream throughout. One more thing to cross off the list. – Squirting when aroused appears to be diminishing. Sadly, I don’t have enough data points to be sure about that. – When aroused I still produce a little mucous. Nothing remotely like the pre-op output (no more sticky spot on the bed-linen), but interesting – ISTR that there are some extra little glands downstream of the sphincter that produce mucous. I forgot to ask Dr Brooks about that. – Erectile function is still poor (some engorgement, but nowhere near enough to be usable). If anything, I think I have slightly less than I did 3-4 weeks ago, but it’s hard to be sure (or to be sure, it’s soft). Sensation is less than pre-op (and again, possibly slightly diminished just at the moment). Pills give me a blocked up nose and a headache, but not a great deal of improvement, if any at all. We’ll see how things go over the next few months. I may look into a pump and/or injections, haven’t decided if/how long to wait before doing that. – As noted elsewhere I still have some internal twinges; Dr Brooks considers these normal and unimportant. – Incision is still slightly tender. Not enough to be bothersome, but I don’t like anything brushing against it. – I still have some perineal discomfort when sitting on my office chair. I had that pre-op, so it may be unrelated (perhaps caused by slight nerve damage from cycling). OTOH, I notice some penile shrinkage when I sit on that chair for a couple of hours; Dr Brooks thinks that this is probably dues to pressure plus residual internal swelling from the op (which he expects to resolve over time). – I have some mild oedema in my lower belly around the bottom half of the incision. Dr Brooks says that this is quite common, may be permanent, and he has no idea what causes it. — Peter Headland

Response:

[Does Dr Brooks still put autologous blood back in even if you don't need it?]

No, he does not. I didn’t need any blood and I didn’t get any blood. I paid $540 for the two autologous blood draws and got about $160 reimbursed by Blue Cross (the high charge and low reimbursement was because Stanford Blood Bank is not a Blue Cross contracted provider) prior to the operation. There was never any mention of reimbursement being conditional upon actually using the blood. I could have used a contracted provider, but that would have added to the risk of screw-ups, because of the need to have the blood shipped to Stanford – I was happier knowing my blood was about 200 yards from the OR. — Peter Headland

Response:

Peter, I’m glad to hear that.  This business of reinjecting your own blood was the only blemish in what was an otherwise excellent interview with a sincerely nice guy and who is a truly topnotch prostate surgeon, one of the "gurus".  I can’t imagine why he would say what he did during my interview.  Thanks for restoring my complete confidence in Dr. Brooks. Dave Perry

Response:

Things sound really great Peter. Best of all…the PSA. Everything else sounds VERY normal. 3 months is early…as you know. Continued good things, Ron B. Chicago

Response:

Congratulations on your progress Peter.  I have a question regarding Dr. Brooks.  I interviewed him prior to my surgery and would have had him do my surgery except that I wanted a  laparoscopic procedure which he, of course, doesn’t do.  He did mention one thing to me which I found to be a big surprise and which startled my wife (a doctor) and also every one of her colleagues who was questioned about it as well. He told me I should have a couple of pints of blood drawn before surgery "just in case" (normal procedure) and that because insurance would only pay for the pro-op blood draw if the blood were used, he puts the blood back into the patient whether patient needs it or not to save said patient a few hundred dollars.  This practice is strongly frowned upon by those in the know (the doctors) as a needless additional risk.  Does he still do that?  Did he do that with you?  Did he mention it at all?  Just curious. Dave Perry

Response:

Just got back from seeing Dr Brooks at Stanford. First post-op PSA is <0.05, so we were both in very good humour. Next test, mid-January. Other stuff: – Continence almost perfect (as it has been from the first few days). I still have to be careful when passing wind (I did leak a squirt the other day when I had some uncomfortable gas and strained to fart), and I no longer have the total confidence that I had pre-operation – it’s not that I ever do leak, it’s just that I have the sense that leaking is a possibility where it never was before. That said, we were out hiking the other day and I was jogging downhill with a full bladder and had no problems at all, likewise I can move, lift, etc. freely without leaking. – I pee with a strong stream. Dr Brooks says that by this stage the risk of strictures is low, especially as I have had a strong stream throughout. One more thing to cross off the list. – Squirting when aroused appears to be diminishing. Sadly, I don’t have enough data points to be sure about that. – When aroused I still produce a little mucous. Nothing remotely like the pre-op output (no more sticky spot on the bed-linen), but interesting – ISTR that there are some extra little glands downstream of the sphincter that produce mucous. I forgot to ask Dr Brooks about that. – Erectile function is still poor (some engorgement, but nowhere near enough to be usable). If anything, I think I have slightly less than I did 3-4 weeks ago, but it’s hard to be sure (or to be sure, it’s soft). Sensation is less than pre-op (and again, possibly slightly diminished just at the moment). Pills give me a blocked up nose and a headache, but not a great deal of improvement, if any at all. We’ll see how things go over the next few months. I may look into a pump and/or injections, haven’t decided if/how long to wait before doing that. – As noted elsewhere I still have some internal twinges; Dr Brooks considers these normal and unimportant. – Incision is still slightly tender. Not enough to be bothersome, but I don’t like anything brushing against it. – I still have some perineal discomfort when sitting on my office chair. I had that pre-op, so it may be unrelated (perhaps caused by slight nerve damage from cycling). OTOH, I notice some penile shrinkage when I sit on that chair for a couple of hours; Dr Brooks thinks that this is probably dues to pressure plus residual internal swelling from the op (which he expects to resolve over time). – I have some mild oedema in my lower belly around the bottom half of the incision. Dr Brooks says that this is quite common, may be permanent, and he has no idea what causes it. — Peter Headland

Response: